Theistic evolution

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colliric:
Yes we do, otherwise how do we know that the big bang occurred as we think it did?
By doing the math.

You are assuming that the only way to know is by observation. In fact observation is coloured by what we think we know and about the imperfection of our theoretical grasp of what we are attempting to observe.

When the Europeans first came to the Americas, the natives could not see the big ships because they had only seen small boats. As soon as the Europeans lowered the row boats, the natives could see them because they had experience of small boats.

Similarly the Europeans could not see buffalo; instead they saw ‘deer’ because they had experience of deer but not of buffalo.

Scientific investigation progresses by oscillating between the two poles of observation and theory.

We observe something until experience shows us that there is something lacking in our understanding of what we are observing. Then we theorize and come up with an explanation for the anomaly. Then we test the theory through repeated observation. And so on.

In quantum science, the very act of observation changes what is being observed. And now there are whole realms which cannot be observed at all, but only inferred through theory; through doing the math.
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colliric:
No we didn’t, some people thought it was round, others thought it was flat. It was debated for several millenia since the Greeks put forth, really, both theories. Then Columbus set out to prove he was right in believing it was round, he said “If I get to India, it must be round”, then went to have a look.
Columbus no more ‘proved’ that the earth was round than the sailors watching the the ships rise into visibility on the horizon.

If observation is your only criteria for knowing something then we would have had to wait for the first manned space flights to see that the earth was round and then we still would have had to take it on faith that the astronauts were making accurately observations and were credible witnesses.
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colliric:
More recently lets talk about the theories of the Moon, before we went there people actually thought it could have been a world like our own, before Mr Armstong put his foot on it and found out it was just a cold lump of rock, it was widely thought, get this, that there was life on the small thing, specifically moon “Buffalo”.
Um… no. We theorized that the moon was a cold rock.
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colliric:
We needed to go there and see for ourselves before that theory was inevitably chucked.
We theorized that it was a cold rock long before we went there.
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colliric:
Religious Faith is essentially diffrent to such faith in things unprooven.
I disagree and have already set out my reasons for disagreeing. Religious faith is not illogical. It merely uses a methodology which may differ from science.

See Faith can never conflict with reason by JP2 on Galileo.
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colliric:
Religious faith is faith in something one believes to have already been proven through evidence. Therefore it is diffrent to simply faith in a scientific theory to be true.
This does not make sense. At all.

Define evidence. Do you believe that it is what can be observed? If so, then your belief contradicts what Hebrews 11:1 says; that faith is the evidence of things unseen.

Unseen. Not observed. But inferred theoretically.

Science is from ‘scientia’ which means knowledge. So religious knowledge, the knowledge of physics, biolology, whatever. We are simply talking about different forms of knowledge. Religion is a form of knowledge. Like physics, it must be logical.
 
Not a rival scientific theory. There is no scientific evidence that the universe came to be as described in Genesis. There is a massive amount of evidence for the “Big Bang”, an old earth and life having evolved from a common ancestor. Therefore, there is no rival theory from the bible.

Peace

Tim
There’s in no single evidence that life evolved from a common ancestor. There are only theories and wishful speculations. There are parts of skulls which look as if they have belonged to apes and there is the imagination that somehow they fit in a typological line representing evolution.
 
There’s in no single evidence that life evolved from a common ancestor. There are only theories and wishful speculations. There are parts of skulls which look as if they have belonged to apes and there is the imagination that somehow they fit in a typological line representing evolution.
By common, you mean ‘single’ which is the evolutionary theory.

However theistic evolutionists (some) believe God created ‘types’ of animal, and that animals evolved from those. Thus God created a ‘cat’ type and all the variations in cat family creatures comes as a result of evolution.

This to me (although I don’t believe it) is more agreeable than a theory that has some unicellular organism one day becoming man… no matter how much time is allowed for.
 
Still doesn’t make sense.
“Where Myth and History Meet: A Christian Response to Myth.” By–well–me. (Dear Moderator: If it is not legit to advertise one’s own books, please feel free to delete this post.)
 
“Where Myth and History Meet: A Christian Response to Myth.” By–well–me. (Dear Moderator: If it is not legit to advertise one’s own books, please feel free to delete this post.)
Do you believe in the ‘law of the excluded middle’?

Whilst I for instance believe that Homer’s works deal with a real event, they are not themselves ‘history’, any more so than a film ‘based on real events’ such as Saving Private Ryan is a documentary.
 
Do you believe in the ‘law of the excluded middle’?

Whilst I for instance believe that Homer’s works deal with a real event, they are not themselves ‘history’, any more so than a film ‘based on real events’ such as Saving Private Ryan is a documentary.
Certainly I believe in the law of excluded middle. The problem here (as Mirdath has repeatedly tried to point out) is that you are reading “Myth and History” as “Non-Truth and Truth.” No, I do not think that “Non-Truth and Truth” “meet.”

Does this mean I have not made a sale?😃
 
(Why didn’t I think of this before?) I recommend C.S. Lewis’s easy-to-find essay “Myth Became Fact.” It’s been reprinted in different places, notably in his book “God in the Dock.”
 
Certainly I believe in the law of excluded middle. The problem here (as Mirdath has repeatedly tried to point out) is that you are reading “Myth and History” as “Non-Truth and Truth.” No, I do not think that “Non-Truth and Truth” “meet.”

Does this mean I have not made a sale?
Firstly, I am not reading myth and history as truth and non-truth. No where have I said this. I have been asking Mirdath what is meant by such statements such that they can be ‘both at once’ take as as a quote, because that’s what Mirdath said. Instead of explaining how this (which seems an apparent contradiction) works, I’ve got responses that Mirdath can’t make a more simpler explanation.

If you mean by ‘meet’ that they touch upon the same things, then I agree with that. But what he’s been saying is that the Genesis is some kind of non-myth non-history.
 
It looks like God even tried to deceive us with one the 10 commandments, saying

“…for in **six days **the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”

👍
 
(Why didn’t I think of this before?) I recommend C.S. Lewis’s easy-to-find essay “Myth Became Fact.” It’s been reprinted in different places, notably in his book “God in the Dock.”
Well Mirdath’s probably working on “When Fact Became Myth” by showing how Genesis (regarded as ‘fact’) is myth.
 
It looks like God even tried to deceive us with one the 10 commandments, saying

“…for in **six days **the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”
Matthew 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
Matthew 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I was once talking to a supporter of theistic evolution who told me that there is nothing wrong with the fact that Jesus believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis- Jesus **most probably didn`t know better **because he was also part human, and humans make mistakes!

I mean serioulsy, at that point what do you say to people. In order to defend evolution some even go that far to blame Jesus for His lack of knowledge! :o
 
I was once talking to a supporter of theistic evolution who told me that there is nothing wrong with the fact that Jesus believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis- Jesus **most probably didn`t know better **because he was also part human, and humans make mistakes!

I mean serioulsy, at that point what do you say to people. In order to defend evolution some even go that far to blame Jesus for His lack of knowledge!
:ouch: that’s a big mistake, because we (Orthodox) believe it was through Jesus that things were created

“…by whom all things were made;”
 
It looks like God even tried to deceive us with one the 10 commandments, saying

“…for in **six days **the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.”

👍
“He rested on the seventh day.” A 24-hour day? If not, why are the other 6 days 24-hour days?
 
Matthew 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
That is correct: “at the beginning the Creator made them male and female.” What in theistic evolution would conflict with this?

I keep breaking my word, however, about no more posting. So no more posts until the SIX QUESTIONS ASKED EARLIER ARE ANSWERED. For the benefit of those who continue to avoid them (and whose initials are M), here they are again:
  1. Would geologists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 6,000 years old, BASED ON THEIR EVIDENCE?
  2. Would astronomers arrive at the conclusion that the universe is 6,000 years old, based on their evidence?
  3. Would archeologists and biologists arrive at the conclusion that animal species have only been around for 6,000 years, based on their evidence?
  4. Would archeologists and anthropologists arrive at the conclusion that the human race has only been around for 6,000 years, based on their evidence?
  5. If the universe is billions of years old, does that mean it no longer requires a Creator?
  6. If the universe is billions of years old, does that fact do anything for or against Catholic / Protestant theology?
You may also want to ask yourself–why is it (psychologically) that you would persistently refuse to answer those six questions? Is it because you are nervous about what kind of answers you would have to give if you were being honest with yourself? Do not worry–God really will not be angry with you for being honest, even if you think your honest answers will go contrary to your interpretation of His Word.

Anyhow, vaya con Dios.
 
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