Theistic Evolutionary Theory...this may be the key to ushering in the era of Messiah!?

[Holly3278]

It definitely offends me. God does not change!

For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, have not perished.
(Mal 3:6 NRSV-CE)

 

[DennisTate]

Well if you want to get precise, the number of grains of sand is finite, and is less than the next finite number. But I don’t see what this has to do with unlikely events becoming inevitable given enough time.

Good question Apollos. I personally don’t actually believe in unlikely events becoming possible through an infinite number of tries. This is what Dr. Stephen Hawking believes. What I do believe in though is God giving us humans essentially infinite capability to spin off in whatever direction in life we chose to go in, which actually affects the fate of the entire world. We are free on the other hand to pray and intercede to the God of Abraham which is the most powerful event that can happen. I believe that God actually will answer all of our prayers to set up a world that is free of misery, injustice and death but our positive action may play a greater role than we had perhaps supposed.

//Howard’s light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.]// (Howard Storm)

near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

 

[DennisTate]

It definitely offends me. God does not change!

For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, have not perished.
(Mal 3:6 NRSV-CE)

Hi Holly: I can certainly understand how you understand this verse in this way but it is also possible to look at this verse quite differently. Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua was Jewish. You may have noticed that the Jewish people have a tendency to place a high value on education. Has Jesus/Yahushua learned anything new since he was resurrected from the dead?

Apparently the entire experience of being human and suffering taught the Logos/Word some things regarding empathy and compassion for humans.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;(Hebrews 5:8)

Perhaps all that the Word learned by being human prepared him to be given all power to judge all humans:

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the SonJohn 5:22)

God also can learn things about our level of understanding of his plan by how we respond to the instructions that we have been given. God knows himself but God can learn about us by what we do and think and say etc…

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.(Genesis 22:12)

 

[DennisTate]

I personally agree with Dr. Tejman that Wave Theory may explain a lot even about gender differences.

grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm

“Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics.” (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

 

[Sufjon]

I would so love for my daughter to be exposed to the idea that perhaps God evolved and is ultimately a Scientist/Inventor composed of fundamental energy.

Did God Evolve?
I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.

Back in the 1990’s I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking’s Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy. Probably a fundamental energy such as SuperForce or Super Energetic Matter which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity. If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor! I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and choreographed by the Life Form/life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

Is evolution more probable to have occurred within 13 billion years or within eternity?

I must admit that these ideas about invisible higher space time dimensions sure does remind me of what many people who have a brush with death report.

near-death.com/ritch.html

Dear Dennis Tate: You have mentioned string theory a good deal. Personally I hope that concept holds up over time, and I think it’s a great bridge that helps rectify the differences between Relativity, which explains the world on the macro level and QM, which explains the world on a micro level. Without String Theory, the two can’t be easily reconciled. Sages in the East have noted how String Theory is also very oddly similar to their long-held traditions on the nature of the universe. A very good point of reference in this area is a book by Amit Goswami called “The Self Aware Universe.” Monistic Idealists are very much on the same track that I think you are headed down. Also, a lot of good inquiry into this sort of subject has been done over the past 3 or 4 thousand years.

I am not sure how much of this you have delved into, i.e., whether or not you have read the Upanishads or certain parts of the Mahabharata, but they spell out in great detail the vibratory and mutable nature of creation, and this has captured the attention of a good number of scientists over recent years.

Anyway, I think a good study of these might reveal that the answer to your question is perhaps both yes and no. If God existed on only one level, then the answer would probably have to be yes or no, but since God is multifarious in nature, the answer would in my view have to be yes and no. Since the material world is likely an epiphenomenon of consciousness rather than consciousness being an epiphenomenon of the material world, then God’s true nature must be outside of the realm of causal push and tug. That aspect of Him which is present in the material world in the form of people, animals, planets galaxies, or whatever is mutable and changes. That part of Him that created the material and mutable reality does not change. Hence, yes and no.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[DennisTate]

Dear Dennis Tate: You have mentioned string theory a good deal. Personally I hope that concept holds up over time, and I think it’s a great bridge that helps rectify the differences between Relativity, which explains the world on the macro level and QM, which explains the world on a micro level. Without String Theory, the two can’t be easily reconciled. Sages in the East have noted how String Theory is also very oddly similar to their long-held traditions on the nature of the universe. A very good point of reference in this area is a book by Amit Goswami called “The Self Aware Universe.” Monistic Idealists are very much on the same track that I think you are headed down. Also, a lot of good inquiry into this sort of subject has been done over the past 3 or 4 thousand years.

I am not sure how much of this you have delved into, i.e., whether or not you have read the Upanishads or certain parts of the Mahabharata, but they spell out in great detail the vibratory and mutable nature of creation, and this has captured the attention of a good number of scientists over recent years.

Anyway, I think a good study of these might reveal that the answer to your question is perhaps both yes and no. If God existed on only one level, then the answer would probably have to be yes or no, but since God is multifarious in nature, the answer would in my view have to be yes and no. Since the material world is likely an epiphenomenon of consciousness rather than consciousness being an epiphenomenon of the material world, then God’s true nature must be outside of the realm of causal push and tug. That aspect of Him which is present in the material world in the form of people, animals, planets galaxies, or whatever is mutable and changes. That part of Him that created the material and mutable reality does not change. Hence, yes and no.

Your friend
Sufjon

Spectacular response Sufjon!

You have profoundly encouraged me by your reply!

I’m not a scholar, just a red neck from the back woods who was forced to read a lot when I was a kid due to rheumatoid arthritis and bleeding ulsers. I taught English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year and have felt drawn into politics since coming back. I believe that there is a place in the North American educational system for books on Intelligent Design but we have to word these books in the right way or they will not be taken serioulsy by the scientific and educational community. I was amazed how many people on Dr. Richard Dawkins FAcebook forum are asking good questions regarding this subject.

To me this is nothing less than the rustling of the leaves at the top of the trees as God moves out ahead of us to bring about the restoration of the lost tribes of Israel and the restoration of all things.

 

[DennisTate]

Here is a thread on Canada Christian Heritage Party message board forum where I elaborate on a plan where Christians and Jews and Moslems may be able to cooperate at a much higher level than before:

cv.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3311

I encouraged Rabbi Yeshayahu Hollander to consider doing up text books on Theistic Evolutionary Theory because I thought that a tremendous number of parents over here in Canada would be extremely interested in getting their children into classes that are not so rabidly skeptical.

This project could be financed through organized barter which would sure fit well with the modern Tea Party movement in both Canada and the USA.

 

[Sufjon]

Spectacular response Sufjon!

To me this is nothing less than the rustling of the leaves at the top of the trees as God moves out ahead of us…

That is very poetic Dennis Tate!

 

[DennisTate]

Here are some great quotations on how scientists are beginning to realize that theoretical physics fits astonishingly well with what theologians have been teaching for centuries:

near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

Scientific Discoveries Resulting From NDEs
(1)
NDEs are proven to be real events

Gravitational forces exerted upon fighter pilots in a centrifuge has revolutionized the field of consciousness studies by providing experimental proof that NDEs are real events because they can be replicated in the laboratory. (Dr. Jim Whinnery)

(2)
A NDE cured cancer

Dr. Ken Ring documented the case of Ralph Duncan who died of leukemia and had a NDE. During his NDE, Jesus cured him and told him he no longer had leukemia. Duncan returned from death cancer-free. (Howard Mikel)

(3)
A NDE cured congenital blindness

A blind and mute 67 year-old diabetic woman with severe heart problems was about to undergo open-heart surgery when a Being of Light appeared and healed her of all her illnesses. The cardiologists could offer no explanation for her cure. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(4)
A NDE healed abdominal sickness

Five days after abdominal surgery, an English patient had complications and died. During his NDE, a Being of Light healed him. The patient returned from death healed. (Margot Grey)

(5)
A NDE advanced biological and medical research

After his NDE, Mellen-Thomas Benedict brought back a great deal of scientific information concerning biophotonics, cellular communication, quantum biology, and DNA research. Mellen-Thomas Benedict currently holds six U.S. patents. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(6)
A NDE supports astrophysical research

Mellen-Thomas Benedict’s NDE supports a number of scientific theories such as: an infinite number of Big Bangs, the reality of zero-point space, a better understanding of black holes. Mellen-Thomas Benedict believes in the future science will be able to quantify spirit. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(7)
A NDE advanced molecular chemistry

Olaf Swenson had a NDE from a botched tonsillectomy at the age of 14 for which he experienced a timeless spaceless dimension which physicists call the “Omega Point”. Because of the information gained from his NDE, he later went on to develop over 100 patents in molecular chemistry. (Dr. Melvin Morse)

(8)
NDEs support Einstein’s theory of time travel

Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.

(a)
I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times … I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross. (Don Brubaker)

(b)
I explored the Roman Empire, Babylon, the times of Noah and Abraham. Any era you can name, I went there. (Dr. George Rodonaia)

(c)
The light replied, “Let us goback in time, as far back as possible, and tell me how far back we should go”. I was thinking for some time. Eventually I blurted out, “Stone Age?” I did not have much time to think about all this, because, all of a sudden, I saw human beings back on Earth. I was looking down on a group of people, men and women, who were dressed in furs, sitting around acampfire. (Guenter Wagner)
(d)
The box opened to reveal what appeared to be a tiny television picture of a world event that was yet to happen. As I watched, I felt myself drawn right into the picture, where I was able to live the event. This happened twelve times, and twelve times I stood in the midst of many events that would shake the world in the future. (Dannion Brinkley)

(9)
a NDE supports a theory of consciousness

One particular theory of consciousness is supported by NDE research an involves consciousness expansion after death. Stanislav Grof explains this theory:

(a)
My first idea was that it [consciousness] has to be hard-wired in the brain. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how something like that is possible.Today, I came to the conclusion that it is not coming from the brain. In that sense, it supports what Aldous Huxley believed after he had some powerful psychedelic experiences and was trying to link them to the brain. He came to the conclusion that maybe the brain acts as a kind of reducing valve that actually protects us from too much cosmic (name removed by moderator)ut … I don’t think you can locate the source of consciousness. I am quite sure it is not in the brain not inside of the skull … It actually, according to my experience, would lie beyond time and space, so it is not localizable. You actually come to the source of consciousness when you dissolve any categories that imply separation, individuality, time, space and so on. You just experience it as a presence. (Stanislav Grof)

(10)
The expansion of consciousness reported during NDEs accounts supports a theory of consciousness.

The following NDE descriptions of consciousness expansion supports the theory of consciousness described above by Stanislav Grof. It theorizes that the brain acts as a reducing valve of cosmic (name removed by moderator)ut to produce consciousness. At death, this reducing-valve function ceases and consciousness is then free to expand. The following NDEs support this:
(a)
I realized that, as the stream was expanding, my own consciousness was also expanding to take in everything in the Universe! (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

(b)
My mind felt like a sponge, growing and expanding in size with each addition … I could feel my mind expanding and absorbing and each new piece of information somehow seemed to belong. (Virginia Rivers)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t think God is evolving. Our own personal understanding of Him is evolving (or devolving in some cases ) but trying to limit God to our finite and limited understanding on the topic of evolution or anything else is really kind of counter productive.

 

[DennisTate]

That is very poetic Dennis Tate!

Gracias Sufjon. I may be way off in the ideas that I express in this message but this is a topic that a lot of skeptics seem to be interested in:

facebook.com/topic.php?topic=19420&post=259074&uid=8798180154#!/topic.php?uid=8798180154&topic=19420
Topic: GUT and String Theory may help Moslems, Christians and Jews get along better!?

Back in May I wrote an e-mail to an Orthodox Jewish Rabby who happens to be a member of the Sanhedrin. He replied to me, four times so far!

//One of the greatest ideological divisions between Christians, Jews and Moslems
is how we regard the parentage of Rabbi Yahushua/Jesus. I have an alternative
theory on this subject that could make greater understanding between all of us possible. My theory hinges on the relatively new idea that the four forces of
electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force can be unified in eleven
dimensions of space-time.

The Oneness of HaShem is important. My theory is that HaShem is composed of
ABSOLUTELY fundamental energy. I suspect that the Ruach ha Kodesh/ The Holy
Spirit could be like HaShem the Mother who He may have taken out of his own’
side much as a rib was taken out of Adam. The Holy Spirit could be like Wisdom
who was with H-m from the beginning, but she could exist in tenth, ninth, eighth, etc.,
space time, but not in absolutely fundamental energy as HaShem, the Father
does.

The Spirit of Mashiach, stored in Gan Eden, from the foundation of the world,
could be identifiable with The Logos or the Word, who has acted as an
intermediary between mankind and HaShem. The Spirit of Mashiach/Word could
exist in either tenth or ninth dimensional space time thus backing up the
Oneness of G-d.

//And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.// (Luke 1:35)

If The Ruach ha Kodesh, the Holy Spirit is indeed in the form of a woman we can
rest assured that she is a phenomenal physician. She would have no difficulty in
taking a sperm sample from Isaiah, freezing or otherwise preserving it for seven
centuries or so, and using it to impregnate Mary/Myriam the wife of Joseph.

It is impossible for a truly objective Christian theologian to rule out this
possibility. This theory could be a major step paving the way for a vastly
greater level of understanding between Jews, Christians and Moslems. If we
Christians can get our heads around the idea that there is no logical or scriptural
basis for dogmatically asserting that Yahushua/Jesus was directly begotten by
HaShem himself, then the entire world has been changed.

There are verses in Isaiah chapters 7 and 8 that cause me to believe that Yahushua/Jesus
may have been produced by a donation of spermatozoa from Isaiah that he probably
knew nothing about donating.

// Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.// (Isaiah 7:14-16)
…
//And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.// (Isaiah 8:3)// (me, May 22, 2010)

Did you know that the Prophet Mohammed had some sort of vision in which he saw Jesus/Yahushua survive the crucifixion and go on to marry Mary Magdalene.

This vision the prophet Mohammed had corresponds strangely well with the early Christian tradition that the disciple Thomas, was the identital twin brother of Jesus/Yahushua. According to tradition, Thomas married Mary Magdalene and the went to many nations, settling eventually in France.

//Among these manuscripts was a text of sayings— pithy aphorisms attributed to none other than Jesus of Nazareth. It’s author, according to the gospel itself, was Didymos Judas Thomas, the same “doubting Thomas” who would not believe that Jesus had risen from the dead unless he touched the very wounds of crucifixion. But what one never hears from traditional Christianity is that Thomas was believed to have been—in some ancient traditions----Jesus’ twin brother. There could hardly be a more astounding claim." (Kenneth Hanson Ph.D., Secrets From the Lost Bible, page 27)

If we try something, and it doesn’t work, and we try it again, and it doesn’t work, should we simply keep on trying the same thing again and again?

We Christians have tried to convince Moslems that they are wrong about essentially everything but I believe that we should find some common ground and give Moslems credit for what they believe that may well turn out to be closer to the truth than we Christians have ever previously imagined.

My apologies in advance for my errors in what I write but I am almost certain that this line of thought is at least a stepping stone to where God is leading all of us. If Moslems Christians and Jews come to a whole new level of understanding each other, the world’s skeptics will be astonishished, and amazed, but also profoundly enouraged!

Some of them would be furious and kind of scared too!

 

[tester]

STOP THE PRESS

Theistic evolution does NOT mean that God evolved

Theistic evolution
From Wikipedia,
Theistic evolution and evolutionary creationism are similar concepts that assert that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life.
Theistic evolution is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to religious belief and interpretation. Theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who reject the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science – that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not contradict. Proponents of this view are sometimes described as Christian Darwinists

Are you trying to describe some other theory??

 

[SteveVH]

Gracias Sufjon. I may be way off in the ideas that I express in this message but this is a topic that a lot of skeptics seem to be interested in:

facebook.com/topic.php?topic=19420&post=259074&uid=8798180154#!/topic.php?uid=8798180154&topic=19420
Topic: GUT and String Theory may help Moslems, Christians and Jews get along better!?

My apologies in advance for my errors in what I write but I am almost certain that this line of thought is at least a stepping stone to where God is leading all of us. If Moslems Christians and Jews come to a whole new level of understanding each other, the world’s skeptics will be astonishished, and amazed, but also profoundly enouraged!

Some of them would be furious and kind of scared too!

Your statement that*“I may be way off in the ideas that I express in this message”* is very true from where I sit. Why in the world would anyone go to such lengths to avoid the truth that has been revealed to us by God Himself? :hypno:

 

[larkin31]

With an omnipotent God, why can’t God change? Can you explain, please? Is there scriptural commentary on this?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With an omnipotent God, why can’t God change? Can you explain, please? Is there scriptural commentary on this?

Because omnipotence doesn’t mean that ‘anything’ can be ‘done’ by the being, if the ‘anything’ is non sensical.

As I said, G. K. Chesterton spoke eloquently on the subject that God’s omnipotence did not mean He could make square circles or a rock too heavy for Him to lift, because these are not ‘sensical’ things.

Change, as we understand it, would mean that God was somehow not ‘complete’, which itself would make God not ‘perfect’, because something incomplete can’t be perfect. And if something IS perfect, it can’t change because you don’t get ‘more’ perfect.

 

[SteveVH]

With an omnipotent God, why can’t God change? Can you explain, please? Is there scriptural commentary on this?

God has no need to change. He is perfection itself. He cannot become any greater, any holier. He cannot become more glorious, more beautiful, more merciful, more just or more loving. He does not just possess truth, but He is Truth itself. He does not just possess love, He is Love itself.

The question is not why can’t God change? The question is why would He? Any change could only diminish Him. We change in order to improve. He cannot improve.

 

[larkin31]

God has no need to change. He is perfection itself. He cannot become any greater, any holier. He cannot become more glorious, more beautiful, more merciful, more just or more loving. He does not just possess truth, but He is Truth itself. He does not just possess love, He is Love itself.

The question is not why can’t God change? The question is why would He? Any change could only diminish Him. We change in order to improve. He cannot improve.

Change could be from one perfect state to another.

And I can’t imagine that human lack of understanding God’s motives would be reason to limit God’s motivations. I imagine that God could do whatever God wished. Any time, any where, any reason, including change, from one perfect state to another. I also don’t see why there could not be more than one perfect state. It seems a human limitation of an idea, not a divine one. I imagine that God would have no such limits.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Change could be from one perfect state to another.

And I can’t imagine that human lack of understanding God’s motives would be reason to limit God’s motivations. I imagine that God could do whatever God wished. Any time, any where, any reason, including change, from one perfect state to another. I also don’t see why there could not be more than one perfect state. It seems a human limitation of an idea, not a divine one. I imagine that God would have no such limits.

If there is more than one ‘perfect’ state and the being is not in more than one state simultaneously he can’t be perfect himself.

Do you really think that perfect freedom is limitless indulgence of wishes?

 

[larkin31]

If there is more than one ‘perfect’ state and the being is not in more than one state simultaneously he can’t be perfect himself.

I don’t see why this is true. You are simply claiming it. God was perfect in the bush with Moses, but God isn’t perfect in that bush with Moses on this planet today. Nor is he perfect in the living body of Jesus wrestling for 40 days in the wilderness today. God isn’t present in all God’s perfect states all the time. Right?

Do you really think that perfect freedom is limitless indulgence of wishes?

Huh? I am just asking how do people think that they can speak for the limitations of God’s motivations? I just don’t get it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t see why this is true. You are simply claiming it. God was perfect in the bush with Moses, but God isn’t perfect in that bush with Moses on this planet today. Nor is he perfect in the living body of Jesus wrestling for 40 days in the wilderness today He’s NOT? Are you SURE? You think that God was only ‘in time’ at that one point? You think God isn’t perfect in Christ?. God isn’t present in all God’s perfect states all the time. Right? What makes you think that?

Huh? I am just asking how do people think that they can speak for the limitations of God’s motivations? I just don’t get it.

Actually, I think you’re the one putting limitations on God. I’m just listening to (and accepting) what He Himself teaches.