Then James says, ‘I rule, then...' Acts 15:7-21

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Cal_in_Omaha:
I just reread Acts 15 hoping to get the sense you did. Admitedly, Peter’s statement sound authoritative. But James sounds more final and binding to me.

It’s interesting that in verses 22-30, it sounds like a committee decision is made to choose a delegation to Antioch. You’d think that either Peter would write the letter or at least his name would be used in to intro to give it final authority. Neither is the case.

It is my judgement therefore that scripture does not make this crystal clear and we have need of a megesterium. :banghead:
Here’s the deciding passage from Acts 15 IMO:

"12 And all the multitude held their peace; and they heard Barnabas and Paul telling what great signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me. 14 Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:…

For which cause I judge that they, who from among the Gentiles are converted to God, are not to be disquieted. 20 But that we write unto them, that they refrain themselves from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. "

It reads to me that James is simply adding his affirmation to what Peter has already stated and moving the council forward by stating the conclusion and how it should be written. not much different than JPII and the then Cardinal Ratzinger teaming up to write some of the encyclicals I’d say.
Pax tecum,
 
truthinlove,

church militant is a respected poster here - you would do well to heed sagely advice. ** TONE IT DOWN.** we would LOVE to talk to you about truth and dialog about correct scriptural interpretation, but you have to do this with a little more compassion for your brothers in Christ - remember, you are trying to win us over with TRUTH IN LOVE!

**no one will listen to you if you’re a jerk. **

hopefully that is all that needs to be said about that.

now, please keep to one topic. is your response about the primacy of peter in the council of jerusalm (acts 15), or is it about idolatry/baptism/mary/intercession of the saints/etc? if it’s about petrine primacy, please just stick to that. if you want to discuss the other topics, we would all be glad to - simply start a new thread.

also, please tell me if Christ didn’t know about the following verse of scripture when He spoke what he did in matt 16:18:

isaiah 22:
22And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
i would hope that you’d say Jesus didn’t know about it, otherwise it SERIOUSLY UNDERMINES what you’re saying about hierarchy…

RyanL
 
Just as an added tid-bit…

The expression of “binding and loosing” not only refers to Isaiah, but it is also a first century Jewish idiom which means the power to bind and loose responsibilities on the faithful.

The High Priest and Sanhedrin had the power to bind and loose upon the people what they had to do to properly observe the laws and rituals and what they were not obligated to do. (Loosed from.)

This same power of authority regarding the responsibilities of the parishoner towards the faith was given to Peter, and de facto, to his successors.

Thal59
 
I want to say I’m sorry for my attitude. I sincerely wish to communicate with you on an intellectual and spiritual level calmly and effectively. Some things can be offensive to both sides of the debate. I am sorry again to have added to them. I will try to live up to my username, the Scriptures I hold so dear, and my beloved Lord Jesus Christ’s example. Thank God my eternal destiny does not depend on my attitude.

Praise be to the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world!!!

I would like to ask a question and get a concensus, How did the Catholics here come to believe that Peter is pope?
 
Apology accepted. 🙂
You have my basic answer in PM…

One of the most telling things is the historical fact that they were indeed speaking Aramaic…(witness all the times Peter is called by his Aramaic name…Cephas) All that stuff about petros /petra just falls into oblivion when you realize that the greek doesn’t say as clearly what the intent is. Especially since the Greek word for a small stone is lithos.
 
Church Militant:
Said by truthinlove:
This is completely wrong scripturally.
REspectfully adding.

The second person pronoun (“you”) in the Greek for Matthew 16 is singular ("I will give you (singular)), while that in Matthew 18 is plural, indicating a collegiate power, still excercised today in the college of bishops as a whole.

In Jewish monarchial language, only one person holds the keys at a time, see Isaiah 22.

Nowhere does Scripture support the giving of the keys to all the apostles; only Peter got this. He is therefore, in a manner of speaking, the “prime minister” of the Church.
 
I did a quick search on google(since I’m not an aramaic or greek scholar(i know a greek one though in a nearby assembly 🙂 )…this is what I found.
The question about the papacy is broader than the interpretation of petros and petra in Matthew 16:18. Do not be fooled by Catholic apologists who make a big deal about ‘this rock’ as if the papacy is vindicated if it could be proved that ‘this rock’ refers to Peter. This passage says nothing about universal jurisdiction, successors or Roman bishops.
Even if this can be conclusively proven (and I think it cannot), it does not confirm the papacy, i.e. the universal rule of the bishop of Rome over the whole church. In fact there is a sense in which the apostle Peter, together with the other apostles and the prophets, form the foundation of the church because the Gospel was first given through them. This has nothing to do with the claimed universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome as the Roman apologist would have us believe.

But let me just deal with the convoluted Aramaic/Greek argument that you kindly sent to me.

It is true that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. But how do the Catholic scholars know what Jesus said in the Aramaic language, since all the existing manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew are written in Greek? You realize that this business of what Jesus must have said in Aramaic is pure speculation. I don’t know what were Jesus’ original words in Aramaic, neither do our Catholic friends. Should we build an argument - indeed the structure of the church of Jesus Christ - on mere speculations?

The Catholic apologist bends over backwards to convince us that petros and petra are equivalent Greek words that mean the same thing. They say that it is merely a question of different gender ending. The truth of the matter is that these are two distinct Greek words with similar, but not identical meaning. According to the Greek Lexicon, petros is “a rock or a stone”, whereas petra is “a rock, cliff or ledge.” Jesus illustrates the meaning of petra as a massive foundational rock: “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:27).

Still, assuming they know what Jesus originally said in Aramaic, the Catholic apologist goes on to explain why Jesus employs the two different Greek words. He puts these words in the mouth of a Protestant missionary:

“Wait a second,” he said. “If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?”

To this the Catholic apologist answers triumphantly: “Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings. You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.”

So that’s why He uses Petros! Not to give Simon a feminine name!
Cont…
 
But I’m sure that the reader can think of a third option. Contrary to the Catholic apologist assertion, He had another choice!

Why not use petros in the second part of the sentence if the Holy Spirit wanted to make it absolutely clear that He was building His church on the son of Jona, and avoid the gender problem? If petra and petros mean the same thing (as the Catholic apologist insists), Jesus could have said:
“Thou art PETROS and upon this PETROS I will build my church.”
There, the third option! That way any ambiguity would have been avoided – if indeed Jesus wanted to identify the foundation rock with the apostle Peter! Needless to say, that is not what Jesus said. Rather, He said:
“Thou are PETROS and upon this PETRA I will build my church.”
Christ insisted on a distinction! At the very least we can say that the rock upon which the church is built could refer to something other than Peter.
So, rather than speculate on Jesus’ original words in Aramaic, we should study the inspired words of the Holy Scriptures, and in Matthew 16:18, the Holy Spirit employed two different words to distinguish between ‘Peter’ and ‘the rock’. That is what we can say with certainty.

I hope you can see the emptiness of the Catholic argument. They want it to sound that it is obviously clear that Jesus built His church on Peter. It is not so. And though any Catholic reading this article may not be inclined to trust me, I would appeal to you to listen to St Augustine’s explanation of this message:

“For on this very account the Lord said, ‘On this rock will I build my Church,’ because Peter had said, “Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.’ On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my church. For the Rock (petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself also built. For other foundation no man lay that this is laid, which is Christ Jesus.” (Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John).

“This rock” is Peter’s confession; the rock, the foundation is Jesus Christ!
I was not even aware Augustine made such a statement. It fits the best possible interpretation I know of.
 
**ROCK **
  1. petra (πέτρα, 4073) denotes “a mass of rock,” as distinct from petros, “a detached stone or boulder,” or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved. For the nature of petra, see Matt. 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Mark 15:46; Luke 6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading is as in the rv, “because it had been well builded”); Rev. 6:15, 16 (cf. Isa. 2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6, 13, used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4 (twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8, metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and the testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra, concerning the Lord Himself, and Petros, the apostle, is clear (see above).
**KEY **

kleis (κλείς, 2807), “a key,” is used metaphorically (a) of “the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” which the Lord committed to Peter, Matt. 16:19, by which he would open the door of faith, as he did to Jews at Pentecost, and to Gentiles in the person of Cornelius, acting as one commissioned by Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit; he had precedence over his fellow disciples, not in authority, but in the matter of time, on the ground of his confession of Christ (v. 16); equal authority was committed to them (18:18); (b) of “the key of knowledge,” Luke 11:52, i.e., knowledge of the revealed will of God, by which men entered into the life that pleases God; this the religious leaders of the Jews had presumptuously “taken away,” so that they neither entered in themselves, nor permitted their hearers to do so; (c) of “the keys of death and of Hades,” Rev. 1:18, rv (see hades), indicative of the authority of the Lord over the bodies and souls of men; (d) of “the key of David,” Rev. 3:7, a reference to Isa. 22:22, speaking of the deposition of Shebna and the investiture of Eliakim, in terms evidently messianic, the metaphor being that of the right of entrance upon administrative authority; the mention of David is symbolic of complete sovereignty; (e) of “the key of the pit of the abyss,” Rev. 9:1; here the symbolism is that of competent authority; the pit represents a shaft or deep entrance into the region (see abyss), from whence issued smoke, symbolic of blinding delusion; (f) of “the key of the abyss,” Rev. 20:1; this is to be distinguished from (e): the symbolism is that of the complete supremacy of God over the region of the lost, in which, by angelic agency, Satan is destined to be confined for a thousand years.

Thought this might be helpful as well.

porthos11

You said that “Nowhere does Scripture support the giving of the keys to all the apostles; only Peter got this. He is therefore, in a manner of speaking, the “prime minister” of the Church”. If you look to Matt 18:18, he gives them all the authority to bind and to loose in heaven.
 
truthinlove,

i’m glad you’re back. 👋 i’ve read that article before, and it was as silly then as it is now. the author insists that there is no way for us to know if Jesus was speaking aramaic, but then ignores the what the bible has to say about it…

%between%
John 1:42
and he brought him unto Jesus: and having looked upon him, Jesus saith, `Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas, thou shalt be called Cephas,’ (which is interpreted, A rock.)
‘cephas’, my dear brother in Christ, is the transliteration of ‘kepha’ into greek. the word ‘cephas’ would not be in the bible if that weren’t what peter was **actually **called. so it’s NOT speculation on the part of the catholic, but rather a singular drive on the part of those who would deny what scripture actually says about the matter. so where does that leave us? after it has been demonstrated IN SCRIPTURE that Jesus called peter ‘kepha’, it follows (as i don’t think there was arabeekish - the equivalent of spanglish) that the rest of the sentence was in aramaic as well. this reduces the article’s house of cards to a paper-thin pile of wasted type…

p.s., you didn’t answer if Jesus knew about isaiah 22:22 when he spoke the parallel matt 16:18…

RyanL
 
oh, and by the way…

Augustine
“There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]” (*Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” *5 [A.D. 397]).
“[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!” (*Sermons *131:10 [A.D. 411]).
“Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’” (*Sermons *295:2 [A.D. 411]).
“Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies” (*Commentary on Psalm 108 *1 [A.D. 415]).
“Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?” (*Commentary on John *56:1 [A.D. 416]).
“If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?” (*Against the Letters of Petilani *2:118 [A.D. 402]).
"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (*Letters *53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
i don’t think st. augustine is on your side on this one…
 
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RyanL:
truthinlove,

i’m glad you’re back. 👋 i’ve read that article before, and it was as silly then as it is now. the author insists that there is no way for us to know if Jesus was speaking aramaic, but then ignores the what the bible has to say about it…

‘cephas’, my dear brother in Christ, is the transliteration of ‘kepha’ into greek. the word ‘cephas’ would not be in the bible if that weren’t what peter was **actually **called. so it’s NOT speculation on the part of the catholic, but rather a singular drive on the part of those who would deny what scripture actually says about the matter. so where does that leave us? after it has been demonstrated IN SCRIPTURE that Jesus called peter ‘kepha’, it follows (as i don’t think there was arabeekish - the equivalent of spanglish) that the rest of the sentence was in aramaic as well. this reduces the article’s house of cards to a paper-thin pile of wasted type…

p.s., you didn’t answer if Jesus knew about isaiah 22:22 when he spoke the parallel matt 16:18…

RyanL
Thanks Ryan 🙂

I think the authors point is that you cannot know what Jesus actually said in Matt 16 since the inspired, infallible record is in Greek not aramaic.
John 1:41-42 (KJV)

41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christf. 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. (not rock)

Again the authors main point, is that even if Peter is petra(a bedrock) of the church it proves nothing in the way of Roman power and authority over the entire church. The verses never claim to pass this authority to another. Peter wrote shortly before his death and never mentioned such a transition, nor does John the oldest apostle. I don’t want you guys to think I’m anti-Peter, one of my favorite passages of Scripture is in Acts 2, when Peter stands up from among the 12 and preaches the Gospel and 3000 are saved. WOOHOO
 
one more quick thing about the augustine quote your article quoted…

the “rock” on which Christ builds his church being peter’s confession is also a catholic understanding of the scripture:

catechism of the catholic church:
[424](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/424.htm’)😉 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
as catholics, we have even more freedom to interpret this verse than protestants! we are given TWO interpretations that we are free to believe, but we cannot believe one AT THE EXPENSE OF the other. it is with this understanding that st. augustine relates what he does in the article. this is, however, a SECONDARY meaning of the text. it is the PRIMARY meaning that we are discussing, and the PRIMARY meaning is that peter is this rock. i would say that there is even a TERCIARY meaning to the text - that Christ’s church would PHYSICALLY be built on peter as the rock. i dare anyone to write a quick sentence off the top of their heads with three different very real meanings!

isn’t God amazing!?! He can make one simple sentence so packed with meaning on so many levels! praise be to God!

RyanL
 
There is no speculation or twisting here. It is a matter of historical fact that the post-exilic language in Palestine was Aramaic. We do not need to claim the Bible’s infalibility here because it does not claim to possess all anthropological or historical fact. We also know Aramaic vocabulary because it’s still the language of the Chaldean and Assyrian churches.

In Aramaic, the word for rock (Gk petra) is kepha. For small stone (Gk. lithos) the Aramaic is evna. It’s clear which one Jesus meant when he named Simon Kepha (see account in John).

The petros/petra argument doesn’t exist in Koine Greek prose, only in certain poetic constructs in Attic Greek. The standard BAGD lexicon, while making note of the distinction, does equate petros with petra in its definition. Check out Petros: the first definition is Peter (a proper name). Everywhere in the NT where a reference is made to a movable stone, “lithos” is always used.

If you don’t believe me, get an Aramaic lexicon and find out.

As for your definition of key, it only seems to support the Catholic position more. Again, you cannot separate it from Is 22.

In any case, you seem to believe Catholics don’t recognize Jesus as the Rock. We do, since Scripture clearly says so. We don’t even dispute that Peter’s confession of faith is a rock: the liturgies for the feast of the Chair of St. Peter acknowledges that. But since we know that God doesn’t change names lightly, Simon’s being named Kepha points to his special foundational role in the Church. Yet he gets his rockness from Jesus. Nothing unscriptural about that either. Peter himself points us to come to Christ the living stone, yet goes on to say that we are to be [as] living stones ourselves. We become such “stones” (lithos) from Christ’s “stoneness”.
 
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RyanL:
one more quick thing about the augustine quote your article quoted…

the “rock” on which Christ builds his church being peter’s confession is also a catholic understanding of the scripture:

catechism of the catholic church:

as catholics, we have even more freedom to interpret this verse than protestants! we are given TWO interpretations that we are free to believe, but we cannot believe one AT THE EXPENSE OF the other. it is with this understanding that st. augustine relates what he does in the article. this is, however, a SECONDARY meaning of the text. it is the PRIMARY meaning that we are discussing, and the PRIMARY meaning is that peter is this rock. i would say that there is even a TERCIARY meaning to the text - that Christ’s church would PHYSICALLY be built on peter as the rock. i dare anyone to write a quick sentence off the top of their heads with three different very real meanings!

isn’t God amazing!?! He can make one simple sentence so packed with meaning on so many levels! praise be to God!

RyanL
So now the church is built on two foundations? Peter and his confession. I do think God is incredibly amazing, but the verbal acrobatics over this simple verse are well, not supported by Scripture. I’ll give you some good verses…

1 Corinthians 3:9-11

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry**(“http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=632690#_ftnIDA0JJBD”), ye are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:18-22 (KJV)

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 **And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner **stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

What is the foundation of the apostles and prophets…the Word of God. The Word of God, the entire book is about Jesus from start to finish. The Bible never depicts the church built on Peter himself, but surely it supports building on his profession, a truly awesome profession…Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 
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truthinlove2:
Thanks Ryan 🙂
you bet! i rejoice in you and thank God for you!
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truthinlove2:
I think the authors point is that you cannot know what Jesus actually said in Matt 16 since the inspired, infallible record is in Greek not aramaic.
but we CAN know - hence the scripture i quoted! if Jesus was going to call peter “petros”, he wouldn’t have renamed him “cephas” - he would have renamed him “petros”. did Jesus not know what he was going to say to peter? then why name him “cephas”? AND did Jesus not know about isaiah 22:22?
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truthinlove2:
John 1:41-42 (KJV)
look it up in young’s literal translation. rock, not stone. also, the king james is NOT inerrant. if you would like to discuss how it is/is not inerrant, start a new thread - there are many who can discuss this in depth. point is that it is a translation, and every translation misses it somewhere…like the whole petros/petra/kepha thing…
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truthinlove2:
Again the authors main point, is that even if Peter is petra(a bedrock) of the church it proves nothing in the way of Roman power and authority over the entire church.
wrong. in and of itself, it’s not the strongest argument. but couple it with isaiah 22:22…
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truthinlove2:
The verses never claim to pass this authority to another.
wrong. see above…
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truthinlove2:
Peter wrote shortly before his death and never mentioned such a transition, nor does John the oldest apostle.
i submit to you that mark was not an apostle. the gospel of mark is actually the gospel according to peter - peter didn’t write much because he was too busy preaching (like many of the other apostles). you should be able to find this at the preface of your kjv gospel of mark introduction. if you would listen to one man who learned from an apostle, would you listen to another man who learned from another apostle? there are tons of writings from these men…the first/second century christians…would you read them if we showed you?
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truthinlove2:
I don’t want you guys to think I’m anti-Peter, one of my favorite passages of Scripture is in Acts 2, when Peter stands up from among the 12 and preaches the Gospel and 3000 are saved. WOOHOO
i don’t think you’re anti-peter (intentionally), but you minimize his role. in doing so, you take away from the man that he was, and that is upsetting.

may Christ’s peace be with you always,
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
you bet! i rejoice in you and thank God for you!
Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice, but thank you for the sentiment.
but we CAN know - hence the scripture i quoted! if Jesus was going to call peter “petros”, he wouldn’t have renamed him “cephas” - he would have renamed him “petros”. did Jesus not know what he was going to say to peter? then why name him “cephas”? AND did Jesus not know about isaiah 22:22?

look it up in young’s literal translation. rock, not stone. also, the king james is NOT inerrant. if you would like to discuss how it is/is not inerrant, start a new thread - there are many who can discuss this in depth. point is that it is a translation, and every translation misses it somewhere…like the whole petros/petra/kepha thing…

wrong. in and of itself, it’s not the strongest argument. but couple it with isaiah 22:22…
Again why didn’t Jesus just say “you are petros, and upon this petros I will build my church”.
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RyanL:
wrong. see above…
How does Isaiah 22 prove that Peter passed his authority to another??? I was looking more for like a NT quote, perhaps from Acts the historical record of the early church.
i submit to you that mark was not an apostle. the gospel of mark is actually the gospel according to peter - peter didn’t write much because he was too busy preaching (like many of the other apostles). you should be able to find this at the preface of your kjv gospel of mark introduction. if you would listen to one man who learned from an apostle, would you listen to another man who learned from another apostle? there are tons of writings from these men…the first/second century christians…would you read them if we showed you?
That didn’t make Mark pope did it. There is a big difference from learning from an associate of an apostle and claiming supreme apostolic power.
i don’t think you’re anti-peter (intentionally), but you minimize his role. in doing so, you take away from the man that he was, and that is upsetting.
How can I minimize his role, its clear in Scripture that he was used greatly by God even after his rebuke of the Lord(Matt 16) and his three denials. Peter was the first to preach the gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles. Still how does any of this prove his papacy and that it transfered to another? How does this build a case for a papacy, especially since the line has been broken by “anti-popes”. Why does current papal doctrine not line up with what Peter taught in the Scriptures?
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RyanL:
may Christ’s peace be with you always
Thank you Ryan. Christ’s peace, grace, love, and righteousness will remain with me because he has said it will. I am no longer my own, I died to self, I live to Christ.

PS We might have to start another thread on Is. 22 🙂
 
sorry for the delay…i had to go to church. after that, i had to accompany my wife to her church (baptist). all in all, it makes for a lengthy morning of praising the Lord! 🙂
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truthinlove2:
Again why didn’t Jesus just say “you are petros, and upon this petros I will build my church”.
that’s just it…he wasn’t speaking greek! he was speaking aramaic - that’s what the ‘cephas’ dialog was all about! it’s not speculation - it’s fact! he named peter ‘cephas’, he routinely used aramaic when speaking to his disciples, and there’s no record that he spoke greek! do a search for “which is translated” in your bible, and you’ll see that it’s Jesus speaking aramaic!
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truthinlove2:
How does Isaiah 22 prove that Peter passed his authority to another??? I was looking more for like a NT quote, perhaps from Acts the historical record of the early church.
in isaiah 22:22, a “prime minister” is established for the “kingdom of david” (a foreshadowing of the “kingdom of Christ”). this prime minister has the power of the king (opening/shutting), but is not the king himself. he speaks for the king, with the authority of the king, and the king honors what the prime minister declares. there is clearly a succession of this power (seen IN isaiah 22), and it’s obvious that this is what Christ is referring to when he gives peter the keys. if you have another take on this, i’d like to hear it…perhaps Christ didn’t know the scriptures that well? remember, matthew was written to the JEWS (who knew all about this isaiah 22 thing…) - perhaps matthew, inspired by the Holy Spirit, didn’t know that people might see this parallel?
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truthinlove2:
That didn’t make Mark pope did it. There is a big difference from learning from an associate of an apostle and claiming supreme apostolic power.
because you’re taught by the pope doesn’t make you pope…i have learned a lot from st. john paul the great, but i would never claim any of his power… my question remains, however, would you listen to men who learned **directly **from the apostles?
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truthinlove2:
How can I minimize his role…How does this build a case for a papacy, especially since the line has been broken by “anti-popes”. Why does current papal doctrine not line up with what Peter taught in the Scriptures?
if i said Jesus was a wonderful teacher, but not God, would that be minimizing his role? of course. but am i not still honoring Him? yes, but in minimizing you do a disservice to him. as for the anti-popes…no matter how many claimants there may have been, there was ever ONLY ONE pope. others claimed to be the messiah…did that make them so? nope. the simple fact is that the chain of popes has remained UN-broken. but that’s another thread…
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truthinlove2:
Thank you Ryan. Christ’s peace, grace, love, and righteousness will remain with me because he has said it will. I am no longer my own, I died to self, I live to Christ.
we would all do well to take this to heart. let us never turn our hearts away from God!

RyanL
 
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truthinlove2:
Again why didn’t Jesus just say “you are petros, and upon this petros I will build my church”.
afterthought…if Jesus WAS speaking greek and really wanted to make a distinction, he would have named peter ‘lithos’ instead of ‘petros’. this is the word used in greek for a “stone” or “movable rock” EVERY OTHER TIME THE IDEA IS DESIRED in scripture. if you have a greek bible/strong’s, look it up…you’ll see that petros being a “movable rock” is completely foreign to scripture. -credit to porthos 11!

RyanL
 
Hey TiL,
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truthinlove2:
Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice, but thank you for the sentiment.
😉 Take a compliment when ya get one.
Again why didn’t Jesus just say “you are petros, and upon this petros I will build my church”.
C’mon now…you know why! 1. He wasn’t speaking Greek at the time. 2. That phraseology wouldn’t happen in Greek because of it’s gender. 3. The meaning is exactly that since we know that this was spoken in Aramaic and from all the other places in the NT where Peter is refered to by his Aramaic name.
How does Isaiah 22 prove that Peter passed his authority to another??? I was looking more for like a NT quote, perhaps from Acts the historical record of the early church.
Look at the principle of the keys in the OT. Also the principle of ordination by the laying on of hands. That also is in the NT…
That didn’t make Mark pope did it. There is a big difference from learning from an associate of an apostle and claiming supreme apostolic power.
The point is that we have abundant writings of the early church that support the things that we are saying. Why would you reject the historical writings of the guys that the apostles discipled when they help clarify what the early church did and believed?
How can I minimize his role, its clear in Scripture that he was used greatly by God even after his rebuke of the Lord(Matt 16) and his three denials. Peter was the first
to preach the gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles. Still how does any of this prove his papacy and that it transfered to another? How does this build a case for a papacy, especially since the line has been broken by “anti-popes”. Why does current papal doctrine not line up with what Peter taught in the Scriptures? This line has never been broken…there were always valid popes, that’s one way you know there were anti-popes. there are anti-popes today…yet we all know who THE pope is no matter what the other self appointed guy says.

The statement in red is useless since you cannot show me a doctrine of the church that was not taught in the NT. That’s just plain not true.
Pax tecum,
 
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