Theocracy is most normal

[GregoryPalamas]

Islam has a belief that I think we share. Namely, “Theocracy is the most normal form of government.” I think every Christian and probably Jew has common cause with Islam in this basic belief. Paradise is our natural state. Christians understand that this natural state has been restored through the incarnation, sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Jews look forward to the coming Messianic Age. Muslims believe that Shariah will bring a very close approximation of this natural state and so believe in the rule by God and not by the people.

Most Christians believe in the reality of the Kingdom of God on earth which is a theocracy and Catholics believe that this theocracy exists within the Church.

There are some differences however. Muslims have an optimistic and we believe unrealistic, belief that Theocracy can be mandated upon all peoples whether or not they are willing to submit. This has led to making what Muhammad called the minor Jihad into the major Jihad of forced conversions that we’ve seen for almost the entirity of Islam’s existence. This is based upon an overly optimistic belief that Muslims can rightly interpret Islam. We on the other hand, recognize the existence of the fall of mankind and the subsequent effects through original sin.

Until their is a proper understanding of humanity’s fallen state we will be forever on the defensive against an overly aggressive religion called Islam.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

Most Christians believe in the reality of the Kingdom of God on earth which is a theocracy and Catholics believe that this theocracy exists within the Church.

John 18:36 should disabuse any Christian of this notion quite readily, if only they’ll read it: Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” [NAB]

 

[GregoryPalamas]

It is not owned by this world but it is here. It is not of the world but it is in the world. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

CDL

 

[quantumDeus]

It is not owned by this world but it is here. It is not of the world but it is in the world. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

CDL

We are also told to render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Islam has a belief that I think we share. Namely, “Theocracy is the most normal form of government.” I think every Christian and probably Jew has common cause with Islam in this basic belief. Paradise is our natural state. Christians understand that this natural state has been restored through the incarnation, sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Jews look forward to the coming Messianic Age. Muslims believe that Shariah will bring a very close approximation of this natural state and so believe in the rule by God and not by the people.

Most Christians believe in the reality of the Kingdom of God on earth which is a theocracy and Catholics believe that this theocracy exists within the Church.

There are some differences however. Muslims have an optimistic and we believe unrealistic, belief that Theocracy can be mandated upon all peoples whether or not they are willing to submit. This has led to making what Muhammad called the minor Jihad into the major Jihad of forced conversions that we’ve seen for almost the entirity of Islam’s existence. This is based upon an overly optimistic belief that Muslims can rightly interpret Islam. We on the other hand, recognize the existence of the fall of mankind and the subsequent effects through original sin.

Until their is a proper understanding of humanity’s fallen state we will be forever on the defensive against an overly aggressive religion called Islam.

CDL

Another problem is that they no longer have a Caliph (similar to the Papacy), thus there are multiple “leaders” almost like Protestantism.

 

[anthony022071]

The only legitimate theocracy would be that of the Jews,with their Law given to them from God by way of Moses. Before Saul was anointed king,it was like an ideal anarchy sustained by God’s protection,with no king but God. But even the Jews could not maintain this kind of government,because they could not be true to the covenant.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The only legitimate theocracy would be that of the Jews,with their Law given to them from God by way of Moses. Before Saul was anointed king,it was like an ideal anarchy sustained by God’s protection,with no king but God. But even the Jews could not maintain this kind of government,because they could not be true to the covenant.

Even their Law said they could have a king, but they blew that as well:14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites. 19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20 and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel. -Deut 17

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The only legitimate theocracy would be that of the Jews,with their Law given to them from God by way of Moses. Before Saul was anointed king,it was like an ideal anarchy sustained by God’s protection,with no king but God. But even the Jews could not maintain this kind of government,because they could not be true to the covenant.

“Anarchy” may not be the appropriate word.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

It is not owned by this world but it is here. It is not of the world but it is in the world. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

The wording of ‘thy kingdom come’ indicates that it isn’t here yet, doesn’t it? As for the will of God being done on earth and heaven alike, that is no call to theocracy but an exhortation to behave according to God’s commands – which nowhere say ‘thy government shall be headed by the pope’.

 

[Valke2]

Islam has a belief that I think we share. Namely, “Theocracy is the most normal form of government.” I think every Christian and probably Jew has common cause with Islam in this basic belief.

This is one Jew who does not share that belief. When the Messiah comes, ok. Until then, I’ll pass.

 

[Ella]

This is one Jew who does not share that belief. When the Messiah comes, ok. Until then, I’ll pass.

Add this Catholic. I do not want to live in a theocracy. I believe in freedom of religion. For everyone. I think the US government, founded on our constitution, is as good as any government on Earth is gonna ever be. And I am blessed to live here in the US!

 

[quantumDeus]

Add this Catholic. I do not want to live in a theocracy. I believe in freedom of religion. For everyone. I think the US government, founded on our constitution, is as good as any government on Earth is gonna ever be. And I am blessed to live here in the US!

Unfortunately the “freedom of religion” is fast becoming “freedom from religion.” Human secularism and relativistic morals are fast replacing the Judeo-Christian based ethics that the Founding Fathers incorporated into the founding documents of this country.

However, I do not wish to digress from overall topic of this thread, so it is more pertinent to discuss it further in a new thread if anyone desires to do so.

For secular prophesy, I would point to George Washington’s Farewell Address to the Nation and its relevance today.

 

[Ella]

Unfortunately the “freedom of religion” is fast becoming “freedom from religion.” Human secularism and relativistic morals are fast replacing the Judeo-Christian based ethics that the Founding Fathers incorporated into the founding documents of this country.

However, I do not wish to digress from overall topic of this thread, so it is more pertinent to discuss it further in a new thread if anyone desires to do so.

For secular prophesy, I would point to George Washington’s Farewell Address to the Nation and its relevance today.

Freedom of religion, including the freedom to choose to be an atheist, is much better than a theocracy where people are punished if they do not follow the state religion.

 

[quantumDeus]

Freedom of religion, including the freedom to choose to be an atheist, is much better than a theocracy where people are punished if they do not follow the state religion.

We are very much in agreement. Although the atheistiic minority should not be allowed to supplant the religiously-derived morality of the majority with relativism.

 

[hamba2han]

I used to be a strong believer in Western-style democracy in my younger days.

Then I gradually discovered what it really means to be a Muslim and this enabled me to grow out of my naiveness.

If people in the West are really honest with themselves, they too will realise that the form of democracy as practiced in the West and also in much of the rest of the world is merely a tool of tyranny.

Proper guidance for the creations on how they should govern their societies can only come from their Creator, not from what the majority of them decide by themselves.

This can only lead to the destruction of their societies as history is continually bearing witness.

 

[quantumDeus]

I used to be a strong believer in Western-style democracy in my younger days.

Then I gradually discovered what it really means to be a Muslim and this enabled me to grow out of my naiveness.

If people in the West are really honest with themselves, they too will realise that the form of democracy as practiced in the West and also in much of the rest of the world is merely a tool of tyranny.

Proper guidance for the creations on how they should govern their societies can only come from their Creator, not from what the majority of them decide by themselves.

This can only lead to the destruction of their societies as history is continually bearing witness.

And the theocratic way of Islam leads to the likes of the Taliban. We render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s here on Earth, for God’s kingdom is in Heaven and is eternal.

 

[hamba2han]

And the theocratic way of Islam leads to the likes of the Taliban. We render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s here on Earth, for God’s kingdom is in Heaven and is eternal.

The creations who willingly forgo the laws and obligations that their Creator has commanded them to follow, in order for them to enjoy their freedom and democracy during their brief stay in this world, will very likely discover that neither freedom nor democracy will exist in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and that will be for all of eternity.

 

[quantumDeus]

The creations who willingly forgo the laws and obligations that their Creator has commanded them to follow, in order for them to enjoy their freedom and democracy in this world, will very likely discover that neither freedom nor democracy will exist in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter.

We do not forego those laws; they are given to us, and as Christians we obey (or try very hard to, at least) God’s commandments.

However, unlike Mo, we didn’t go embedding civil law into religion. That Mo did so served his more nefarious purposes and is one of the many reasons I reject Islam.

 

[hamba2han]

We do not forego those laws; they are given to us, and as Christians we obey (or try very hard to, at least) God’s commandments.

However, unlike Mo, we didn’t go embedding civil law into religion. That Mo did so served his more nefarious purposes and is one of the many reasons I reject Islam.

Oh, you obey (or try very hard to, at least) God’s commandments, do you?

**Thou shall not murder.

Thou shalt not bear false witness (about the presence of WMDs)

Thou shall not covet thy neighbour’s oil (house).**

What are you doing in Iraq then?

 

[quantumDeus]

Oh, you obey (or try very hard to, at least) God’s commandments, do you?

**Thou shall not murder.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Thou shall not covet thy neighbour’s oil (house).**

What are you doing in Iraq then?

Warfare against armed combatants is not murder.
What false witness?
We buy the oil at market value.
I am not in Iraq. If you mean why is the US in Iraq, then you need to examine why Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991 and was poised to invade Saudi. After the first Gulf War, a ceasefire agreement was reached. Saddam’s regime was in material breech of that ceasefire for 12 years. In international law this is causus belli to resume an already declared war.