Theodicy, Free Will, and Salvation

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wk11

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Hello friends,

I have a decent grasp of the problem of evil in Christian theology and non-Christian philosophy, and overall find the Christian (and specifically Catholic) explanation to be the most complete. However, there is a question I still haven’t heard a good answer to. In the Catholic view, whether Molinist or Thomist, God provides all humans the grace that grants free will to choose to accept or reject Him. By this, God retains His sovereignty without forfeiting human free will, which in turn explains how evil can exist without God being its author, and why double predestination is not true.

My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him? This would still allow for the presence of sin in the world, and for humans to freely respond to God’s grace, rather than being automatons. It would avoid any person actually being damned for all eternity. How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?

With due respect to other traditions, I’m really only interested in responses from a Catholic perspective. Obviously there is a degree of mystery associated with faith, and especially with a question like this, but we can understand in part by human reason, and that’s what I’m interested in.
 
God has revealed that He greatly values freedom - our freedom. God, the Being, the Existence, Love itself, knows that love, in the created world is a free choice. He gives the ability to choose love to all whom He creates, knowing that all have the ability to choose wrongly, but that, in seeking Him, all will then choose correctly. Evil - that is, the lack of love - occurs when we choose to place some other good above our Creator, and then serve it instead of God.
 
Salutations,
GOOGLE site in Isaiah, I CREATED THE DARK AND THE LIGHT. I CREATED THE GOOD AND THE EVIL. HE, God, is omniscient! HE knows all things. Presbyterians believe in predestination. BUT, I argue this point because of our free will.I feel he doesn’t invade our space in our decisions. HE makes the choices clear but we choose— Google this---- I GIVE YOU, LUCIFER/SATAN RULE OVER THE EARTH.
We are Jesus on earth. It is not His place to feed the hungry, Clothe the naked, shelter the homeless and visit imprisoned. IT is our responsibility as the CHURCH, AS JESUS.!!!
Eph:6:12-19 “FINALLY, BUILD UP YOUR STRENGTH IN UNION W THE LORD AND BY MEANS OF HIS MIGHTY POWER. PUT ON ALL THE ARMOR THAT GOD GIVES YOU, SO THAT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO STAND UP AGAINST THE DEVIL’S EVIL TRICKS. FOR WE ARE NOT FIGHTING AGAINST HUMAN BEINGS, BUT AGAINST THE WICKED SPIRITUAL FORCES IN THE HEAVENLY WORLD, THE RULERS, AUTHORITIES, AND COSMIC POWERS OF THIS DARK AGE, SO PUT ON GOD’S ARMOR NOW!! SO, WHEN THE EVIL DAY COMES, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO RESIST THE ENEMY’S ATTACKS AND AFTER FIGHTING TO THE END, YOU WILL STILL HOLD YOUR GROUND.
SO, STAND READY W TRUTH AS A BELT TIED TIGHT AROUND YOUR WAIST, WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS AS YOUR BREASTPLATE, AND AS YOUR SHOES THE READINESS TO ANNOUNCE THE GOOD NEWS OF PEACE. AT ALL TIMES CARRY FAITH AS YOUR SHIELD FOR WITH IT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PUT OUT ALL THE BURNING ARROWS SHOT BY THE EVIL ONE. AND ACCEPT SALVATION AS A HELMUT AND THE WORD OF GOD AS A SWORD WHICH THE SPIRIT GIVES YOU. DO ALL THIS IS IN PRAYER, ASKING FOR GOD’S HELP. PRAY ON EVERY OCCASSION AS SPIRIT LEADS YOU. FOR THIS REASON KEEP ALERT AND NEVER GIVE UP. PRAY ALWAYS FOR ALL GOD’S PEOPLE.!”
I hope this helps you w some of your spiritual questions.My Bible is a precious moments Bible for children. IT is the Catholic version. I love it because even Hebrew names are translated into English. MY marriage was very bad for awhile
And God gave me Isaiah 62. Hezekiah is unhappily married and Beulah is happily married. So the verses meant for me were clear and true. We will celebrate 50 yrs, if we live that long! He is 75 w bad lungs on oxygen and sneaks cigarettes.
Me, overweight w all spinal discs collapsing,=DDD and DJD. DEGENERATE disc and joint disease. I joke around how I am a degenerate. Oh well.Osreoarthritis,
and fibromyalgia. Constant pain. Pain regimen keeps at a 4/10 level but I don’t do too much. So, I hope we make it to 50 yrs. I will be skinny by God’s grace. I want to renew vows in a wedding dress.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
Hi,
KJV. ISAIAH 45, 7. I CREATE LIGHT AND FORM DARKNESS. I MAKE PEACE AND
CREATE EVIL. I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THIBGS.
What Kind of Authority Does Satan Exercise?
Jesus referred to him as “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31), and Paul calls him “the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2) and “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4). John makes a further distinction when he says: “We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19). These references leave us with the question: In what sense does Satan “rule” the world?
The Bible frequently uses “the world” or “this world” to refer to the present evil system of opposition to God. So, the Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the current system of sinful opposition to God. In other words, he’s leading the rebellion against God.

Well,
I looked things up.

This page is KJV and a Protestant minister is answering question on Satan’s power. So, God didn’t say, I give you power over the earth but is referred to as “ruler of this world”/ Jesus.
The “prince of power of the air” / Paul and “God of the world”
John=whole world is in the power of the evil one.
In Job, God gave Satan permission to attack Job but not to take his life.
GOD doesn’t want unloving robots. He didn’t want Lucifer, the angel of Light and #2 position in heaven to lead a rebellion against God. So, we have him here on earth to cause trouble. Everything bad is not devil initiated. WE live in a natural world and a supernatural world. I can choose to drive over the speed limit. BUT, I could be getting a spiritual challenge. “THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT”, doesn’t hold mustard 100% of the time. I still think somewhere I saw God say to Satan that he gave him the earth. BUt, I CAN BE WRONG.
in Christ’slove
Tweedlealice
 
…I appreciate the replies, but you guys aren’t addressing the question. Not even a little bit.
 
I don’t know if a definitive answer can be provided. To a degree, we must accept God’s reply to Job: Who are we to question and even think it’s something we are able to comprehend?

That isn’t satisfying to many. But we trust in God and that in His infinite knowledge He does have His reasons for choosing this world over one in which everyone always chooses to follow him, and whether or not this justifies His reasons, and even if it isn’t his main reason, we do know that He would not permit evil if He could not provide an even greater response in goodness. We see a prime example in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, or the fall of man and man’s redemption. We trust that once we attain the Beatific Vision of God, we will understand and know, that everything will be put into perspective.

Anyway, I think it boils down to the fact that just because we don’t yet comprehend the reason doesn’t mean there’s an intellectual contradiction, and as a matter of faith we trust in God. Not really the answer you are looking for, I’m sure. But I think it’s all we can say. If anyone knows better than me about the Church’s views on this, please go ahead.

Perhaps following Him in a world in which everyone else chooses and follows him would be too easy. Perhaps conforming ourselves to Christ and truly giving ourselves to God and our neighbors does require self sacrifice and persecution for our development. But this is just speculation. I don’t think we can know.
 
wk11 said:
My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him? This would still allow for the presence of sin in the world, and for humans to freely respond to God’s grace, rather than being automatons. It would avoid any person actually being damned for all eternity. How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?
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That is an interesting observation and I think you are right. One however can go even farther and questions the creation of universe if we accept your scenario. God can simply create human in Heaven. What is the point of all suffering, dealing with evil, confusion, etc.?
 
We’re here to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a hunger and thirst for God, so that ultimately, with His help, we may embrace and partake in that righteousness ourselves. But part of the journey is in struggling against sin, in experiencing, in knowing, both good and evil, and coming to make the right choice between them. Our wills are always involved. Some end up as wheat, some as tares. But in the end the tares actually help the wheat to decide, to decide not to be a tare.
 
wk11 said:
…
My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him?
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…God did only create those people who could freely choose to follow Him.

If God only creates those people who would freely then free will would be a sham.
wk11 said:
How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?..
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1 Tim 2:4.
 
wk11 said:
My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him? This would still allow for the presence of sin in the world, and for humans to freely respond to God’s grace, rather than being automatons. It would avoid any person actually being damned for all eternity. How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?
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In other words, you are asking why didn’t God create Heaven only. Or in another way, why didn’t God create a subset of people already predestined for heaven and prohibit/eliminate all births (subset) that don’t.

If that were the case, then there is not much of a Divine plan where there is no liberty to choose the alternative. Divine communism? (if there is such a thing.) Imagine a scenario where all those who say “Aye” enter the Heaven door and don’t who say “Nays” get poofed out of existence.
 
I think free will is a fair response to the issue of moral evil. I’m not so sure it’s perfect but I get it.

The problem of natural evil I think is much more problematic when weighed against God’'s omnibenevolance. I find it hard to believe that suffering isn’t evil. Or that allowing suffering is morally less-than preventing suffering.
 
Rhubarb said:
I think free will is a fair response to the issue of moral evil. I’m not so sure it’s perfect but I get it.

The problem of natural evil I think is much more problematic when weighed against God’'s omnibenevolance. I find it hard to believe that suffering isn’t evil. Or that allowing suffering is morally less-than preventing suffering.
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I thought long over the problem of natural evil too. This is my take.

This is a logical consequence if God intend his creation to choose freely to love and obey Him or NOT to love/obey Him. Since Adam/Eve rejected Him, He also withdrew (partially) his optimal sustenance of the natural world so that they no longer enjoy all the benefits of full fellowship with God. Hence, natural evil. God didn’t bluff in Gen 3:3. And Man will die from old age, sickness, war, natural calamities, self or externally -inflicted injuries, etc. He just didn’t specify how death is to be accomplished or that it will be painless. Senses were given to us to enjoy the good things in life. We also get to sense them when bad things happen. (Like jerking your hands away when touching a hot surface. If we don’t have that sense, how would you like your hand, rare or well done?:D). The first immoral death was Able/Cain.

Those living comfortable lives think they don’t need God. “I’m doing ok without him”. Yet , they don’t realise that if God were to withdrew his benevolence on maintaining the natural world, we probably will not be living under nice balmy sunshine but perhaps more of Mars, Venus, Jupiter type of environment. No one to calm the storms. Perhaps they will continue to scream for Science’s intervention. but not God. Let’s nuke that hurricane. In Hell , there is no Science to quench their (physical/spiritual?) torment though. And they still think it is dumb luck that Earth is so hospitable compared to other planets and other suns/planetary systems. They just don’t get it.
 
God still loves those who don’t choose him also.

*But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. **For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. **46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers,i what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5)

He is talking about being merciful to even your enemies. God is merciful to those who oppose him. When he says be perfect he is talking about being merciful. See context and Luke 6.

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.“(Luke 6)

It is a great mercy for God to allow those who oppose him to continue to exist and to prosper alike.
 
ericc said:
I thought long over the problem of natural evil too. This is my take.

This is a logical consequence if God intend his creation to choose freely to love and obey Him or NOT to love/obey Him. Since Adam/Eve rejected Him, He also withdrew (partially) his optimal sustenance of the natural world so that they no longer enjoy all the benefits of full fellowship with God. Hence, natural evil. God didn’t bluff in Gen 3:3. And Man will die from old age, sickness, war, natural calamities, self or externally -inflicted injuries, etc. He just didn’t specify how death is to be accomplished or that it will be painless. Senses were given to us to enjoy the good things in life. We also get to sense them when bad things happen. (Like jerking your hands away when touching a hot surface. If we don’t have that sense, how would you like your hand, rare or well done?:D). The first immoral death was Able/Cain.

Those living comfortable lives think they don’t need God. “I’m doing ok without him”. Yet , they don’t realise that if God were to withdrew his benevolence on maintaining the natural world, we probably will not be living under nice balmy sunshine but perhaps more of Mars, Venus, Jupiter type of environment. No one to calm the storms. Perhaps they will continue to scream for Science’s intervention. but not God. Let’s nuke that hurricane. In Hell , there is no Science to quench their (physical/spiritual?) torment though. And they still think it is dumb luck that Earth is so hospitable compared to other planets and other suns/planetary systems. They just don’t get it.
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👍 No one has ever produced a feasible blueprint of a world superior to our planet.
Why not? Because it is merely wishful thinking based on presumption…
 
wk11 said:
Hello friends,

I have a decent grasp of the problem of evil in Christian theology and non-Christian philosophy, and overall find the Christian (and specifically Catholic) explanation to be the most complete. However, there is a question I still haven’t heard a good answer to. In the Catholic view, whether Molinist or Thomist, God provides all humans the grace that grants free will to choose to accept or reject Him. By this, God retains His sovereignty without forfeiting human free will, which in turn explains how evil can exist without God being its author, and why double predestination is not true.

My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him? This would still allow for the presence of sin in the world, and for humans to freely respond to God’s grace, rather than being automatons. It would avoid any person actually being damned for all eternity. How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?

With due respect to other traditions, I’m really only interested in responses from a Catholic perspective. Obviously there is a degree of mystery associated with faith, and especially with a question like this, but we can understand in part by human reason, and that’s what I’m interested in.
Click to expand...
“If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combination of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them with the two other words ‘God can’. Nonsense remains nonsense, even when we talk it about God.” - C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
wk11 said:
Hello friends,

I have a decent grasp of the problem of evil in Christian theology and non-Christian philosophy, and overall find the Christian (and specifically Catholic) explanation to be the most complete. However, there is a question I still haven’t heard a good answer to. In the Catholic view, whether Molinist or Thomist, God provides all humans the grace that grants free will to choose to accept or reject Him. By this, God retains His sovereignty without forfeiting human free will, which in turn explains how evil can exist without God being its author, and why double predestination is not true.

My question: If this is true, why did God not only create those people who would freely choose to follow Him? This would still allow for the presence of sin in the world, and for humans to freely respond to God’s grace, rather than being automatons. It would avoid any person actually being damned for all eternity. How can Catholic theology/philosophy answer this question?

With due respect to other traditions, I’m really only interested in responses from a Catholic perspective. Obviously there is a degree of mystery associated with faith, and especially with a question like this, but we can understand in part by human reason, and that’s what I’m interested in.
Click to expand...
This is a complex question requiring a thorough answer, so you’ll want to read the full article from which this is taken:

But why would God not just create different people, ones he knew would not sin? It seems that he could still give himself fully to them. Reiterating the same principle of divine chastity: In God, the only principle of action is unconditional love, and this is non-negotiable. The threat of evil is not allowed to have any influence at all in diminishing love. Consequently, God considers only the essential goodness with which a person is to be created, and loves each as if each were the only one. Thus he refuses to “abort” or “contracept” any, and bestows the same power and importance on the greatest sinners that he would have given had he no knowledge that they would turn against him. He simply does not negotiate with evil, and is always himself regardless of its threat. In our human experience, we so often easily compromise love in response to the threat of evil that this kind of purity is difficult to understand. Even though God is omniscient, divine chastity causes it to appear as if God is entirely ignorant of the threat of evil, for in every situation he gives everything that he would have given had evil never been a consideration.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.” (Matthew, 5:43-45)

In light of the concept of divine chastity, we can see how God can be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, infinitely offended by the evils in the world, and yet evil can still exist despite God’s total opposition to it.

Contrary to the popular notion that God permits evil, where the term “permits” is understood as approving of an evil in some degree as a means to a good end, it is God’s perfect disapproval and non-cooperation with evil that enables evil to have power and continued existence. Refusing to do evil (i.e. diminish his love) in order to prevent evil, God pours himself out in love without compromise with evil, and it is this very perfection of the self-gift of God and his refusal to compromise that makes it possible for his gifts to be abused such that evil has any real power.​

newapologetics.com/the-theodicy-of-divine-chastity
 
Randy_Carson said:
This is a complex question requiring a thorough answer, so you’ll want to read the full article from which this is taken:
But why would God not just create different people, ones he knew would not sin? It seems that he could still give himself fully to them. Reiterating the same principle of divine chastity: In God, the only principle of action is unconditional love, and this is non-negotiable. The threat of evil is not allowed to have any influence at all in diminishing love. Consequently, God considers only the essential goodness with which a person is to be created, and loves each as if each were the only one. Thus he refuses to “abort” or “contracept” any, and bestows the same power and importance on the greatest sinners that he would have given had he no knowledge that they would turn against him. He simply does not negotiate with evil, and is always himself regardless of its threat. In our human experience, we so often easily compromise love in response to the threat of evil that this kind of purity is difficult to understand. Even though God is omniscient, divine chastity causes it to appear as if God is entirely ignorant of the threat of evil, for in every situation he gives everything that he would have given had evil never been a consideration.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.” (Matthew, 5:43-45)In light of the concept of divine chastity, we can see how God can be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, infinitely offended by the evils in the world, and yet evil can still exist despite God’s total opposition to it.

Contrary to the popular notion that God permits evil, where the term “permits” is understood as approving of an evil in some degree as a means to a good end, it is God’s perfect disapproval and non-cooperation with evil that enables evil to have power and continued existence. Refusing to do evil (i.e. diminish his love) in order to prevent evil, God pours himself out in love without compromise with evil, and it is this very perfection of the self-gift of God and his refusal to compromise that makes it possible for his gifts to be abused such that evil has any real power.​

newapologetics.com/the-theodicy-of-divine-chastity
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A superb response! :clapping:
 
To reverse the topic, God wanted us to be. It seems like an odd thing to complain about. He chose you and me and all kinds of other imperfect people over all (nearly) perfect people. He wanted you over a perfect world. He wants to perfect and glorify you, to invite YOU to participate in His divine life, not someone else. He could have chosen an unfallen world, perhaps, but he chose each of us in preference to that. He did not neglect to create you because you might be a grave sinner, or because you might reject Him. He still wanted you to exist and to have the chance to be made into a god by participation in Him.
 
Wesrock said:
To reverse the topic, God wanted us to be. It seems like an odd thing to complain about. He chose you and me and all kinds of other imperfect people over all (nearly) perfect people. He wanted you over a perfect world. He wants to perfect and glorify you, to invite YOU to participate in His divine life, not someone else. He could have chosen an unfallen world, perhaps, but he chose each of us in preference to that. He did not neglect to create you because you might be a grave sinner, or because you might reject Him. He still wanted you to exist and to have the chance to be made into a god by participation in Him.
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Indeed. God knows the inestimable value of sin! It is a lesser evil than lack of free will.
 
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