Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[E.E.N.S]

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

I hear His voice in many different ways; through the Church and the Vicar of Christ, through Scriptures, through the voices of the saints and the Doctors of the Church, through my conscience (a propely formed conscience is desired and necessary), through prayer; but have I ever heard it auditibly from Christ Himself? No. Does this bother me? No. I do know this however, that when I hear things that go against the very things Christ has said to do [in all the ways mentioned above], I know that they are not from Him. Robert, on more than one occassion you have said things that were contrary to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[heisenburg]

Robert,

If I may, and please, understand, I am not attacking your position, only wishing to share with you the view that form my understanding the Catholic Church holds in regards to private study and personal revelation…

Take form it what you will. And if you feel i am in error, thus is your right. Please understand, none of this is directed at you personally

If you look at 2 Peter,the last 2 or 3 versus in the 1st chapter, it says that no personal interpretation or phrofecy should be trusted of man, for these onyl come from the spirit.

A few points on this matter…

1. It does seem to give an out by saying as long as it comes from the spirit it is OK. However, how do you know that the interpretation you have been “given” is not from your own pride, things you have heard in passing, or worse still, the devil. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light.
2. To say “I know it is the spirit” unfortunantly does borderline on arogance. We are often times tricked by our own senses and emotions. Thus can easily be the case if some level of pride kicks in. We also cannot be sure it does nto come from things we have heard in the past and not realized it. Things we hear in passing that gets associated with a particular verse, but may not realy be related. Finally, the devil ahs been around a lot longer than we have, and no mater how good we think we are at hearing the truth on our own, the devil is the master of lies and can trick anyone. Even the best people ever to walk the earth have fallen to sin…
3. How can the same spirit show two differant people contradictory truth when in regards to a single verse. I have had someone tell em that we must struggle to the end realy means we must struggle to christ, not the end of our lives…

Point 2) When someone is led astray by faulty understanding, many times, they often try and “show” others where they are wrong. People then become false teachers and what is worse, many do not even realize they are.

Point 3) Teachers… It seems you also question the validity of those that wish to teach us in christ. Any time you try and show any one anything in the bible, or about a particular belief in christianity, you are becoming a teacher. If you learn anything form anyone with respect to christ, you become a student. I have heard many people try and cover this by saying they are sharing their knowledge, but not teaching. If you give anyone any insight, whether true or false, you become a dictionary defined teacher

Finally, keep in mind jesus said where ever two of you are, there I am. Not where ever one of you is. While there is nothing wrong with asking god for guidence, we still must use the knowledge from others as a check. We must also be carefull though that the person we ask is truely in christ. Many people think they are, but have sadly been misled themselves and become false teachers…

The catholic church gives us this guidence in the magisterium, tradition, and the bible. These are the three pillars of our faith. THink of it sorta like the three branches of government the USA has. It is design (by christ) as a system of checks and balances so that we do not stray from the truth.

If you are catholic, then you understand this. If you are not catholic, then hopefully I have provided you with soemthing useful. I am not trying to force you to change your stance, only that I wish you to understand why relying on jsut ourselves is very dangerous.

My personal belief is that the biggest threat to Christianity as a whole is Personal Interpretation…

In Christ

 

[Ignatius]

Robert Heibel:

Yes even the Mormans would say that! The truth is, that is why He gave us His Holy Spirit.
Giver

There must be 30 or 40 thousand of them and they all disagree.

How can we tell the actual Truth? It cannot be the case that dozens of diametrically opposed interpretations are correct. There is only one Truth, who has it? Or does no one have it?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

E.E.N.S.:

I hear His voice in many different ways; through the Church and the Vicar of Christ, through Scriptures, through the voices of the saints and the Doctors of the Church, through my conscience (a propely formed conscience is desired and necessary), through prayer; but have I ever heard it auditibly from Christ Himself? No. Does this bother me? No. I do know this however, that when I hear things that go against the very things Christ has said to do [in all the ways mentioned above], I know that they are not from Him. Robert, on more than one occassion you have said things that were contrary to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

You say I quoted Scripture wrong? Show me.
Giver

 

[Robert_Heibel]

jjoshjl:

Robert,

If I may, and please, understand, I am not attacking your position, only wishing to share with you the view that form my understanding the Catholic Church holds in regards to private study and personal revelation…

Take form it what you will. And if you feel i am in error, thus is your right. Please understand, none of this is directed at you personally

If you look at 2 Peter,the last 2 or 3 versus in the 1st chapter, it says that no personal interpretation or phrofecy should be trusted of man, for these onyl come from the spirit.

A few points on this matter…

1. It does seem to give an out by saying as long as it comes from the spirit it is OK. However, how do you know that the interpretation you have been “given” is not from your own pride, things you have heard in passing, or worse still, the devil. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light.
2. To say “I know it is the spirit” unfortunantly does borderline on arogance. We are often times tricked by our own senses and emotions. Thus can easily be the case if some level of pride kicks in. We also cannot be sure it does nto come from things we have heard in the past and not realized it. Things we hear in passing that gets associated with a particular verse, but may not realy be related. Finally, the devil ahs been around a lot longer than we have, and no mater how good we think we are at hearing the truth on our own, the devil is the master of lies and can trick anyone. Even the best people ever to walk the earth have fallen to sin…
3. How can the same spirit show two differant people contradictory truth when in regards to a single verse. I have had someone tell em that we must struggle to the end realy means we must struggle to christ, not the end of our lives…

Point 2) When someone is led astray by faulty understanding, many times, they often try and “show” others where they are wrong. People then become false teachers and what is worse, many do not even realize they are.

Point 3) Teachers… It seems you also question the validity of those that wish to teach us in christ. Any time you try and show any one anything in the bible, or about a particular belief in christianity, you are becoming a teacher. If you learn anything form anyone with respect to christ, you become a student. I have heard many people try and cover this by saying they are sharing their knowledge, but not teaching. If you give anyone any insight, whether true or false, you become a dictionary defined teacher

Finally, keep in mind jesus said where ever two of you are, there I am. Not where ever one of you is. While there is nothing wrong with asking god for guidence, we still must use the knowledge from others as a check. We must also be carefull though that the person we ask is truely in christ. Many people think they are, but have sadly been misled themselves and become false teachers…

The catholic church gives us this guidence in the magisterium, tradition, and the bible. These are the three pillars of our faith. THink of it sorta like the three branches of government the USA has. It is design (by christ) as a system of checks and balances so that we do not stray from the truth.

If you are catholic, then you understand this. If you are not catholic, then hopefully I have provided you with soemthing useful. I am not trying to force you to change your stance, only that I wish you to understand why relying on jsut ourselves is very dangerous.

My personal belief is that the biggest threat to Christianity as a whole is Personal Interpretation…

In Christ

You maybe should read the following Scripture a little more carefully and you will notice that it is the Holy Spirit talking through a prophet. Also your attitude which tells everyone that anyone who dares get up and say that they have the gift of prophecy etc. are arrogant, full of pride, etc. is one of the reasons the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not more in evidence. How dare anyone with the gift of prophecy get up and say something that doesn’t go along with the accepted teachings WOW! I wonder if Paul had to put up with similar attitudes?

(2 Peter 1:20-21) “At the same time, we must be most careful to remember that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. Why? Because no prophecy ever came from man’s initiative. When men spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them.” If we are walking in the gift prophecy, then we bring words to the Church from the Holy Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:3-4) “On the other hand, the man who prophesies does talk to other people, to their improvement, their encouragement and their consolation. The one with the gift of tongues talks for his own benefit, but the man who prophesies does so for the benefit of the community.”

 

[E.E.N.S]

Robert Heibel:

You say I quoted Scripture wrong? Show me.
Giver

I didn’t say you quoted Scripture wrong, but I do believe that you interpret it wrong.

I am going to use a quote given by somebody else on this forum that I think fit the bill pretty well…

"Robert Heibel goes a little further than most in his statements and uses his “conversations with God” to argue that the Catholic Church is wrong and he is right because “Jesus told him”. Robert tries to convince people here that he is a Prophet of God.
Below are some of his quotes taken from various threads."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Heibel - Quotes -
*“… I know the Bible is the Word of God, because Jesus told me that it was His Word.” *

*”When Jesus comes to a person personally, I mean hear Him talk to them, touch them, shows Himself to them…", *

“When I accepted Jesus’ call into His ministry I asked Him what seminary to attend. He told me NO! Don’t read about me, I’ll teach you about me.”

”Jesus personally told me He is God, and the Holy Spirit told me that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus…"
**
“What I am trying to do is share what Jesus has taught me, and my job, given to me by Jesus, is to give a word.”

**
”I know Jesus’ voice and I will follow no other.”

“… Jesus let me know that if I gave Him my life I would lose everything I owned. As I was about to lose my car, I went to jesus and was complaining. Jesus then spoke to me and said “Bob, They hung me.”

*”*Jesus told me He would teach me about Him and He has,…" **

*“Jesus spoke to me once and told me “All glory and honor belongs to me not you.” *

*“Yes, Jesus has spoken to me, and still speaks to me often. When I accepted Jesus call to His ministry, I asked Him what seminary to attend and Jesus told me “No! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me” *

*”Jesus has been teaching me for over thirty years now…", *

By the way that I hear Christ’s words I know that the Catholic Church is the One, True Church, however everything you state goes against that. This is what I meant by my previous comment, not that you quote Scripture wrong.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Robert, I think that you are a highly intelligent man, and it appears as though you love God very much, I just have a fear that you are not truly led by who you think you are, mainly due to the fact that you are in opposition to Christ’s Church (I know that you disagree that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, but I believe it is with all my heart and mind.)

Truth cannot contradict Himself.

May God bless you in your efforts toward faith, hope and charity.

 

[Knight4God]

I want to make a few comments:

====

1. Prophecy is testable:

Does what the Prophet say come true? Deut 18:22

Does the prophet teach correct doctrine? Even though he speaks in the name of the LORD and can perform miracles and tell the future? Deut 13:1-3

What is his life like? Matt 7:15-16

====
2) We are commanded to then not only test those claming to be prophets but also

Test the Sprits for correct doctrine. 1 John 4:1-2 (against Docitism here)

Test for the correct Gospel. Gal 1:8

Because Even Satan can appear as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14
And he can quote scripture Matt 4:1-10

====
3) Testing the spirits and prophecy requires correct understanding of God’s teachings

We are commanded to learn theology and doctrine to be able to discern who is right and wrong. Rom 16:17-18

It requires study (2 Tim 2:5) by human teachers which God appointed for his Church (Eze 44:23-24, Rom 12:7, Col 1:28, Col 3:16)

Discernment or what is from God and what is false is not a subjective feeling, but something someone learns (Heb 5:12-14)

Note: We do not ask God for Knowledge but Wisdom! (James 1:5) The seeking of Wisdom and meditation on the statutes of God and instruction is praised throughout the Book of Proverbs.

====
4) There is not then a subjective feeling whereby the Spirit talks directly to a person under normal circumstances. The Spirit convicts the world of sin and judgment and righteousness (John 16:8). But the Church as a pillar and foundation of the truth and by the study of the Scriptures (1 Tim 3:15-16) has teachers learned to discernment that teach others right from wrong and through that education learn to test the spirits and prophecies.

====
5) There is no dichotomy between “a personal relationship with Jesus” (a phrase never found in the Bible, even though it can be derived) and a study of Theology. The very sentence “Jesus loves you” is a theological statement. Studying Theology is an act of personal worship.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Robert Heibel:

Theologian “Can’t see the forest because of the trees”

Reading some of the threads and posts and I see all these people discussing what this or that word in the Bible meant, or what some professor though about some phrase.

If we are to profit from the Bible, we need to know what the words, concepts, pasages, and books of which it is composed, mean. The Biblical scholars are at home with these things, more than most of us - so it is perfectly appropriate to consult what they say.

I wonder if theology students are trying to get close to Jesus or are they trying to get A’s?

Is it the asking of the questions you’re concerned about, or, do you see the wrong questions being asked, or, too many questions ?

Don’t you wonder what would happen if everyone stopped asking professors about God and started asking Jesus instead.?

Last point first: to ask Jesus is equivalent to asking God - for Jesus reveals and mediates the Father. As you doubtless know already.

I can speak only for myself. I want to know the meaning of the Bible so that I don’t inject into it ideas of my own only to draw them out of it again. I want the text to mediate what God intended - not what I might like it to mean. And I am absolutely certain that every other Christian on this board would say exactly the same. Different Christians may well have very different, even incopatible, approaches - that doesn’t mean they don’t have the same desire to get out of the Bible what is in it.

 

[Tonks40]

Interesting little story:

I was auditioning for a part in a non-denominational Christian singing group. It came down to 5 girls vying for 2 parts. After rehearsal, the choir director gathered us, and asked us what our spiritual life was like. All the girls talked about their relationship with Jesus. When it came to me, I said that my relationship with God was one that I treasure. One of the ladies piped up, "That’s interesting you said “God” instead of “Jesus”. I looked at her and said, “In the Catholic Church, we believe in the Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit as One. What’s the difference?”

Needless to say, I didn’t get the part…

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

.
…
…
You know what I think, most Christians know about Jesus about like they know someone they have read about in history
…

Robert,

Did Jesus tell you this? Is this something the Holy Spirit would inspire you to say? Is this the kind of judgment that scripture says you should engage in?

Can you list any individuals in scripture that carried on conversations with God with the frequency and in the same manner that you do? And what about all of the biblical figures that are obviously saved and in heaven that did not carry on conversations with the Lord in the fashion you describe? Perhaps they were holy for reasons other than having the kind of conversations that you claim to enjoy.

Robert never forget the following passage of scripture:

John 20:25-29
So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Perhaps the same can be said about those that have heard the audible voice of Jesus vs. those that believe but have not heard the audible voice of Jesus.

Please show me in scripture where it says that you must hear the audible voice of Jesus in order to have a relationship with him.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

Robert,

Did Jesus tell you this? Is this something the Holy Spirit would inspire you to say? Is this the kind of judgment that scripture says you should engage in?

Can you list any individuals in scripture that carried on conversations with God with the frequency and in the same manner that you do? And what about all of the biblical figures that are obviously saved and in heaven that did not carry on conversations with the Lord in the fashion you describe? Perhaps they were holy for reasons other than having the kind of conversations that you claim to enjoy.

Robert never forget the following passage of scripture:

John 20:25-29
So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Perhaps the same can be said about those that have heard the audible voice of Jesus vs. those that believe but have not heard the audible voice of Jesus.

Please show me in scripture where it says that you must hear the audible voice of Jesus in order to have a relationship with him.

My wife hasn’t heard Jesus speak to her audibly, but she sure has heard him. You know what though she has heard Satan talk to her audibly, and she had no problem knowing that it were Satan and not Jesus.

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

 

[heisenburg]

Robert -
I do not wish for you to think I am attacking you, so please do not read this as such.

While I understand where youare coming from, please also understand that I am mearly saying that with out being able to verify what you are saying against the accepted teachings of christ, and not what a person SAYS are the accepted teachings of christ is Arrogance. These are two differant things.

With out some level of guidence, even if not be the church, people have a very very strong tendency to be misled. Not saying they will, but that it is possible.

Pride does play a factor, I freely admit I am a victim of it myself when reading scripture. Thus is why I come here, ask priests, so on and so forth. I am also a member of several Noncatholic boards to get there view. I have tried not to make dicisions on arguemnts without fully understanding both sides of a debate. Everytime, I am lefd back to the churches teaching.

Please though, understand, I am not saying your are arrogant, full of pride, what ever, only that these are things that Must be taken into consideration. If they are not, then statements made by anyone with respect to scripture, you and me included, should be considered at best suspect…

If Jesus truely is visiting you on a daily basis as it sounds, then you are truely blessed mroe than any in history, even Moses, and I pray that you will use that gift wisely.

Prophosey and interpretation should never go counter to scripture, both old and new together. Saying That you do not need to test your own interpretation against scripture and others goes counter to that. Even the greatest of all profits where subject to this.

Peace be with you Robert.

 

[Ignatius]

Robert Heibel:

Yes even the Mormans would say that! The truth is, that is why He gave us His Holy Spirit.

There must be 30 or 40 thousand of them and they all disagree.

How can we tell the actual Truth? It cannot be the case that dozens of diametrically opposed interpretations are correct. There is only one Truth, who has it? Or does no one have it?

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

My wife hasn’t heard Jesus speak to her audibly, but she sure has heard him. You know what though she has heard Satan talk to her audibly, and she had no problem knowing that it were Satan and not Jesus.

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

I am glad to know that your wife clearly discerned the difference between what Satan might say vs. the word of God.

I am, however, at least a little perplexed as to why you quoted me but responded with something that in no way answered my questions or addressed my main points. I would be interested in knowing your thinking vis-a-vis my concerns.

Thanks in advance,

Pax

 

[Subrosa]

Robert Heibel:

Don’t you wonder what would happen if everyone stopped asking professors about God and started asking Jesus instead.?

With all due respect, Rob, isn’t this what we do when we open the Bible and read the Gospels? Aren’t the words of Jesus speaking to us through theses texts?

Please don’t take me wrong. Praying is active communication with Him, but isn’t it possible, indeed likely that human error causes people to understand Him incorrectly? For instance, look at all the different Protestant congregations, each with thier own particular take on specific biblical verses.

I know of a pastor who recently started his own congregation because “the Holy Spirit instructed him to do so.” Now we have yet another person who is correct due to the intervention of the Holy Spirit, and we all know that once the Holy Spirit has spoken, then you can’t be wrong.

Please!

Can it be that all of the different congregations can’t be wrong? All speak the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit? Then why do they disagree if He speaks only the truth? The answer must be that they are mistaken in what they understand Him to be saying to them.

Does God have only the truth He intended? I’ve got to believe He has truly only one intention in each of His teachings.

This is why I am Catholic, because I believe in the authority of Christ’s own church and that He speaks through her.

Yes I pray to Jesus and ask Him to intercede for me. The answers I get come to me through prayer and the teachings of the Catholic Church which Paul calls “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15) I do this because I am fallable and may misunderstand the prayers I receive from Jesus.

Jesus speaks only the truth to us, of this we can be certain. How do you know, without question, that what you receive from Jesus is understood by you infallably?

Subrosa

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Subrosa:

With all due respect, Rob, isn’t this what we do when we open the Bible and read the Gospels? Aren’t the words of Jesus speaking to us through theses texts?

Please don’t take me wrong. Praying is active communication with Him, but isn’t it possible, indeed likely that human error causes people to understand Him incorrectly? For instance, look at all the different Protestant congregations, each with thier own particular take on specific biblical verses.

I know of a pastor who recently started his own congregation because “the Holy Spirit instructed him to do so.” Now we have yet another person who is correct due to the intervention of the Holy Spirit, and we all know that once the Holy Spirit has spoken, then you can’t be wrong.

Please!

Can it be that all of the different congregations can’t be wrong? All speak the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit? Then why do they disagree if He speaks only the truth? The answer must be that they are mistaken in what they understand Him to be saying to them.

Does God have only the truth He intended? I’ve got to believe He has truly only one intention in each of His teachings.

This is why I am Catholic, because I believe in the authority of Christ’s own church and that He speaks through her.

Yes I pray to Jesus and ask Him to intercede for me. The answers I get come to me through prayer and the teachings of the Catholic Church which Paul calls “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15) I do this because I am fallable and may misunderstand the prayers I receive from Jesus.

Jesus speaks only the truth to us, of this we can be certain. How do you know, without question, that what you receive from Jesus is understood by you infallably?

Subrosa

The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who had a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right and He tells them it wasn’t right, that person would soon be put on the right path or ignored.

Jesus teaches me much different then He teaches my wife. We aren’t always ready to for the same lesson and He seam to be much more gentle with my wife than He is with me.

So many people appear to be so concerned that the Holy Spirit will lead them astray. Just because someone says they were told something doesn’t mean they are to be believed. What is told to anyone needs to be tested by the Word of God and other Spirit filled Christians.

The Holy Spirit told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non-Catholics about the Eucharist being truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. Jesus told me: we were not to hurt anyone for any reason, He is God, the Bible is His Word, it is dangerous to call any man father, Christians are dead to sin.
Bob

 

[Church_Militant]

Robert Heibel:

The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who had a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right and He tells them it wasn’t right, that person would soon be put on the right path or ignored.

Jesus teaches me much different then He teaches my wife. We aren’t always ready to for the same lesson and He seam to be much more gentle with my wife than He is with me.

So many people appear to be so concerned that the Holy Spirit will lead them astray. Just because someone says they were told something doesn’t mean they are to be believed. What is told to anyone needs to be tested by the Word of God and other Spirit filled Christians.

The Holy Spirit told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non-Catholics about the Eucharist being truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. Jesus told me: we were not to hurt anyone for any reason, He is God, the Bible is His Word, it is dangerous to call any man father, Christians are dead to sin.
BobBob,
This is another case where you “personal revelation” is in error according to the Word of God, and I urge you to reassess your beliefs & to prayerfully seek God and obey the Word of God where it says that you should “study to show thyself approved unto God…rightly dividing the word…”

You cannot produce one single pasage from the Word of God that says anything at all about “a personal relationship with Jesus”…it’s just not there.

it is dangerous to call any man father

So what did you call your own male parent? Moreover you misinterpret what the very Word of God says and what the New Testament teaches. Therefor your teaching cannot be from the Holy Spirit. See this tract: Call No Man Father

Christians are dead to sin.

This is a scriptural statement, but I also know from previous posts of yours that you believe that you are now sinless & incapable of sinning, which is not at all supported by the Word of God.

Almost every letter in the New Testament was written to churches & they all deal with some form of sin within the church by those who were believers. If what you believe is true then that would not have been the case at all.

Furthermore, 1 John 2:1 clearly shows that the apostle John does not agree with you either. And we all KNOW that he was inspired to write this by the Holy Spirit, unlike you. My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just:
Bob, I’m sorry my friend, but you have been decieved and led astray somehow and your teachings are manifestly not those of the Holy Spirit.

I beg you as a brother in Christ to forsake this and come home.
Praying for you.

 

[Subrosa]

Hi Bob - some responses and questions…

1. The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.”

If I were to ask Jesus about what you say, Bob, what would He say?

1. If every Christian who had a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right and He tells them it wasn’t right, that person would soon be put on the right path or ignored.

The personal relationship aspect of your account is something, I think, no one can disagree with. However, it is interesting that the holy Spirit spoke to you in such stark language. Could you relate how you received this message? A vision? A concept that came to you? Something else, perhaps?

Jesus teaches me much different then He teaches my wife. We aren’t always ready to for the same lesson and He seam to be much more gentle with my wife than He is with me.

In which way does the holy Spirit interact with your wife, Bob? I am asking for particulars here. How is it different from His approach to you, using examples?

1. So many people appear to be so concerned that the Holy Spirit will lead them astray.

A small correction, Bob. I said that people misunderstand the holy Spirit, not that the holy Spirit will lead them astray. I cannot believe that the holy Spirit would do such a thing.

Just because someone says they were told something doesn’t mean they are to be believed.

Are you speaking about yourself, Bob? Or just other people who say they have received the word from the holy Spirit? People such as Charles Taze Russel, David Koresh, Mary Baker Eddy or Jim Jones. These people say they spoke to the holy Spirit, also. Why should I believe you and not them?

What is told to anyone needs to be tested by the Word of God and other Spirit filled Christians.

How do we test what you are saying, then, Bob? The Bible, perhaps? You say yourself that the Bible is the Word of God (see # 11) Show me in the Bible what it says about having a personal relationship with Jesus, please. By the way, Catholics are Spirit filled Christians. We receive the holy Spirit at baptism, as i am sure you know.

1. The Holy Spirit told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus

Catholics, indeed have personal relationships with Jesus. Have you concluded otherwise? If so, how? And what is it about a personal relationship with Jesus that is so important?

1. and to non-Catholics about the Eucharist being truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Could you elaborate on what He said, exactly? You see, Bob, the holy Eucharist is a fundimental part of Catholicism. Is it necessary to recieive the Eucharist in order to have a personal relationship with Christ? If so, then Catholics have it wrapped up.

1. Jesus told me: we were not to hurt anyone for any reason,

That’s biblical, Bob.

1. He is God,

No argument. I agree.

1. the Bible is His Word,

The bible alone, Bob? Or is there any other source? Do you get your conversations from somewhere else?

1. it is dangerous to call any man father

In which sense, Bob? Am I offending God by using this word in addressing my paternal parent? What do you call you paternal parent?

1. Christians are dead to sin.

Could you explain this more fully?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Church Militant:

Bob,
This is another case where you “personal revelation” is in error according to the Word of God, and I urge you to reassess your beliefs & to prayerfully seek God and obey the Word of God where it says that you should “study to show thyself approved unto God…rightly dividing the word…”

You cannot produce one single pasage from the Word of God that says anything at all about “a personal relationship with Jesus”…it’s just not there.
So what did you call your own male parent? Moreover you misinterpret what the very Word of God says and what the New Testament teaches. Therefor your teaching cannot be from the Holy Spirit. See this tract: Call No Man Father
This is a scriptural statement, but I also know from previous posts of yours that you believe that you are now sinless & incapable of sinning, which is not at all supported by the Word of God.

Almost every letter in the New Testament was written to churches & they all deal with some form of sin within the church by those who were believers. If what you believe is true then that would not have been the case at all.
Furthermore, 1 John 2:1 clearly shows that the apostle John does not agree with you either. And we all KNOW that he was inspired to write this by the Holy Spirit, unlike you. My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just:
Bob, I’m sorry my friend, but you have been decieved and led astray somehow and your teachings are manifestly not those of the Holy Spirit.

I beg you as a brother in Christ to forsake this and come home.
Praying for you.

You need to read the rest of John.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.