Theological basis for NFP?

[PJM]

=Alyosha13;7537184]This is my first post here, I read this forum a lot but have finally found the desire to post and begin contributing.

What is finally prompting this is my earnest and genuine difficulty with NFP. Primarily, my problem is that in all of my reading and research and talking with others, I have never had it clearly explained to me why artificial, nonabortifacient contraception is a sin.

I am really hoping I get a great answer!

The answer is both simple and PROFOUND in it’s proper understanding.

Let’s began with Gen. 1: 26-27 “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God ***he created him; male and female he created them.” *** WHY?

God’s WHY is answered in the next verse; 28: And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

What this mans is:

1. We are Created by God [FOR GOD"S PURPOSES].
2. We only exist BECAUSE of God. [Every sexual relation does NOT result in a pregnancy.] WHY?

Because God is All-Knowing, All- Wise and ALL-JUST. God having made us in His own image, gives each of us Spiritual Attributes: A Mind, an Intellect,a FreeWILL and a complex soul.

The precise reason for these gifts can be found [in general terms] in Isaiah 43: v.7 and 21… [7] every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." [21] the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

We accomplish our purpose for our existence by using these Spiritual Gifts to Know God, love God and by serving God: NONE of which are possible without being Obedient to God’s Divine Will.

In the Lord’s Prayer we were taught by Jesus Himself [God] : “Thy Kingdom come;THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.” And this is accomplished in Heaven by total and complete Obediene to God’s Divine Will.

God is; God desires to be; and God DEMANDS to be THE AUTHOR OF ALL LIFE AND DEATH DECISSIONS. **Wis.16: 13 “**For thou hast power over life and death;” Sir.11: 14 “Good things and bad, life and death, poverty and wealth, come from the Lord.”

And while not always understood: The Ffth Commandment [the Commandments are actually Catagories of sins; not limited to the heading /cheif sins] is '“Thou Shall NOT Kill.” Preventing on purpose is the equilivent to killing; and therefor a sin of equal stature.

***We spoke eariler about EVERY sexual relaton resulting in a Pregnancy. This too is GOd’s design to allow for a limited about of control by the parents; BUT MUST BE DONE in God’s way.

Contraception is a relatively new HUMAN INVENTION. The Natural way worked for hundreds of years. Some chose to forget that fact. ***

***This practice has found wide support; and why not; in a country that aborts over 1 Milion babies each year. The Popes speak corectly about a “Culture of Death.” Contraception is a GREAT PART OF IT.

The reason it’s a sin is because it denies God His EXCLUSIVE Rights to control ALL matters of Life and birth and Death. And this APPLIES to ALL humanity; it’s not ONLY a CC Teaching. [Protestants used to support the position until it became unpopular and political sucide for Pastor’s]. The Commandments are Given to every human being; and God expects each of us to Know and Obey them.

Doing so IS ONLY POSSIBLE WITH GODS ASSISTANCE.***

In closing I’ll point out that “It’s Not easy” because it’s NOT supposed to be easy. It’s a foolish position to think one can participate in GODS GLORY without ALSO participaing with Christ in His Suffering.

SUFFERING

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. **Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

May God continue to Bless and Guide you; always do what is moraly RIGHT!

Pat

 

[Em_in_FL]

Right, but the fact that it is an ‘insult’ is just God’s opinion, right?

I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, I’m just trying to pin down if you are saying there is a logical distinction between ABC and NFP or if it is just that God happens to ‘feel’ a particular way about the two things, and that is the only reason.

That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[mellestad]

I’m not going to go crazy over the Church’s choice of words. The intent is that the word “Procreative” means that you shouldn’t use contraception.
Why? Because it insults the “good” design that the Creator intended.

If the answer is, “Because God says so” why don’t you just say that? Why all the justification?

“Insulting God” just means God thinks ABC is bad, and NFP is good. If that is the only justification then fine, that should be enough for an obedient Catholic, but I don’t understand how we can have twenty pages of posts trying to rationalize a logical (to a human) reason.

 

[Em_in_FL]

NFP affects the sex acts by taking elaborate and planned action to make sure that they only take place when she is infertile. To seriously claim that this doesn’t affect her sex acts, would be the same as saying that my training regimen would not be affected by elaborate and planned action.

What do you consider “elaborate”? I don’t put any effort into tracking my fertility… it’s all very 2nd nature now. It’s like remembering how to tie my shoes… I don’t have to think about the process - it just comes naturally.

I wouldn’t consider it “planned” either… it’s just information. I can choose to use it or not at any given time. If I tell my husband “I’m not fertile right now”, does that mean we HAVE to act on it? Or, if after examining our reasons mid-cycle for why we’re choosing to avoid conception, and we decide to change our mind… that can be done in a moment’s notice…
Not much “planning” going on with last minute decisions!

 

[vera_dicere]

I still don’t see how using artificial contraception is “working against God.” This is something that has never made sense to me.

I heard this explanation from a Catholic apologist who specalised in birth control/NFP.

Farmer Brown lives on a massive farm that happens to back onto a beach. Its teh most stunning beach imaginable and a lot of people want to go to the beach.

The only way for the public to get to this beach is to cross over Farmer Brown’s farm. Now, farmer Brown has made it clear that he has no problem with peopel crossing his land to get to the beach.

However, farmer Brown does the following: He errects a 10 metre concrete fence with barbed wire at teh top, around the edge of this fence is a mote which he fills with sharks and stingrays and piranas. On the inside of his fence, he lays about two square kilometres full of claymore mines and after that there’s another two kilometres worth of razor wire. Running along the beach’s edge is another 10 metre fence with automated machine gun turretts that are set to fire on anything that moves.

Now, if you saw Farmer Browns’ farm, and heard his statement that he doesn’t mind people crossing his land, what woudl you think? Woudl you believe his statement that he doesn’t mind people coming onto his land?

 

[mellestad]

You’re right, Catholicism teaches that decreasing the likelihood of conception is not the sin with ABC, but that the physical manipulation used to accomplish it is sinful.

When married couples have sex, God requires that they leave a physical pathway open for the union of male and female seed. The rest (fertility, conception) is entirely up to Him, although NFP gives us a window into His design.

A basis for this teaching is Genesis 2:24, echoed in Matthew 19:5, “Man has now to leave father and mother, and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one body”. It seems impossible to contracept and follow this teaching.

Form is important to God. The creation account in Genesis is all about form. In part, the sexual requirements taught in Catholicism are about form as well. The marital act that leaves a physical pathway open for the union of male and female seed is procreative in form. Why does Catholicism require married couples to use this procreative form? Because that’s all we can do. We can’t set out to engage in a procreative act, we can only know in hindsight that an act was procreative. We can set out to have sex in the procreative form (even during pregnancy, menopause, etc.).

I’m curious about this. So would it be accurate to say that you believe conception must contain a supernatural element? Is that only for humans, or is it for other animals?

Or is it just a general point because God controls everything material?

 

[mellestad]

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean.

I was trying to ask if you agreed with my central point, or disagreed with it.

I agree that, in reality, we don’t agree, but I’m just trying to make a summary statement within the catholic belief system that explains this debate.

So far no-one on either side has done so, and I was hoping that my definition about ritual would do so.

 

[Em_in_FL]

If the answer is, “Because God says so” why don’t you just say that? Why all the justification?

“Insulting God” just means God thinks ABC is bad, and NFP is good. If that is the only justification then fine, that should be enough for an obedient Catholic, but I don’t understand how we can have twenty pages of posts trying to rationalize a logical (to a human) reason.

Because everything the Church teaches IS justified. We don’t have to follow blindly. The reasons are beautiful in and of themselves.

And no, NFP isn’t “good” always… it’s something people take RECOURSE to, when there are serious/just/well-grounded REASONS. If those reasons aren’t there then NFP is just as insulting.

 

[Persuader]

Real-life NFP doesn’t work that way.

If my husband were to ask me if I wanted to have sex, the answer would generally be, “yes”. When we’re avoiding pregnancy, his question is, “are you fertile”? If my answer is yes, he doesn’t reject me, we sacrifice sex for that day. We don’t always sacrifice happily, but it helps to keep in mind that Jesus elevated sacrifice as the greatest love of all.

This is semantics. If you want to call it a sacrifice, it can still be a rejection. And it is. This cannot be more obvious. To reject something means that you choose against it. Both your husband and yourself are choosing against sex and fertility by deliberately avoiding sex when fertile. It is a bit like considering a meal, and asking: “is it apple in it? Yes? Not interested then.” Then you are obviously rejecting the meal and the apple.

 

[Em_in_FL]

This is semantics. If you want to call it a sacrifice, it can still be a rejection. And it is. This cannot be more obvious. To reject something means that you choose against it. Both your husband and yourself are choosing against sex and fertility by deliberately avoiding sex when fertile. It is a bit like considering a meal, and asking: “is it apple in it? Yes? Not interested then.” Then you are obviously rejecting the meal and the apple.

No… entirely wrong. Sex is Sacramental - it is a GOOD of marriage. There is no reason to “reject” it… avoiding it is ALWAYS sacrificial.
Obviously the reasons better be pretty good to need to sacrifice something so wonderful.

 

[mellestad]

That doesn’t make any sense.

Why not?

What I’m seeing is this chain of thought:

1: God’s will is reality.
2: God’s will is interpreted by the church.
3: The church says NFP is OK, ABC is bad.

Therefore, ABC is bad, because God thinks it is bad, and we know God thinks it is bad, because the church says that is what God thinks.

Right? This isn’t some sort of trick or word game, if that is right, I’m satisfied.

I’m just confused because the above three things are what the argument continually boils down to, and yet there are hundreds of posts where people don’t see to say that out front…they try and put tons of justification around it.

 

[mellestad]

Also, how in the world does everyone post so quickly? Is everyone just sitting in front of a screen waiting for replies? Yikes. I thought I posted a lot!

 

[cc1999]

I agree that, in reality, we don’t agree, but I’m just trying to make a summary statement within the catholic belief system that explains this debate.

So far no-one on either side has done so, and I was hoping that my definition about ritual would do so.

IMHO, you won’t get a summary. Because of the framework it is being argued in, the conclusion is already assumed to be correct. The methodology to get to the conclusion is therefore not relevant. Random bits of information and illogical conclusions can therefore be put forth, because the one supporting the Church’s position can always claim moral infallibility.

I take the position that truth can always be justified by a coherent line of thought. Apparently that position isn’t popular here.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Why not?

What I’m seeing is this chain of thought:

1: God’s will is reality.
2: God’s will is interpreted by the church.
3: The church says NFP is OK, ABC is bad.

Therefore, ABC is bad, because God thinks it is bad, and we know God thinks it is bad, because the church says that is what God thinks.

Right? This isn’t some sort of trick or word game, if that is right, I’m satisfied.

I’m just confused because the above three things are what the argument continually boils down to, and yet there are hundreds of posts where people don’t see to say that out front…they try and put tons of justification around it.

Yes that’s right.
However, God’s is also logical and morality makes sense. Therefore many people want things justified… hence the… justification. And others just want to avoid trusting the “Catholic” church because we’re… well, Catholic.

 

[PassingThru]

No… entirely wrong. Sex is Sacramental - it is a GOOD of marriage. There is no reason to “reject” it… avoiding it is ALWAYS sacrificial.
Obviously the reasons better be pretty good to need to sacrifice something so wonderful.

So, in summary, your position is that it is impossible to reject either sex or fertility while practicing NFP, and it is impossible to accept sex (correctly) or fertility while practicing ABC. And I would assume this is from a position of faith alone? Simple enough…

 

[Persuader]

What do you consider “elaborate”? I don’t put any effort into tracking my fertility… it’s all very 2nd nature now. It’s like remembering how to tie my shoes… I don’t have to think about the process - it just comes naturally.

I wouldn’t consider it “planned” either… it’s just information. I can choose to use it or not at any given time. If I tell my husband “I’m not fertile right now”, does that mean we HAVE to act on it? Or, if after examining our reasons mid-cycle for why we’re choosing to avoid conception, and we decide to change our mind… that can be done in a moment’s notice…
Not much “planning” going on with last minute decisions!

Whether or not something is elaborate doesn’t hinge on whether or not it takes effort for you after much practice. Do you seriously think nfp is not elaborate?

To gather the information on your fertility doesn’t necessitate that you use it to avoid conception, but in the case of nfp you gather the information as part of an elaborate plan to intentionally avoid conception by only having sex while infertile. You can, of course, change your mind, but that is no point at all. Abc-couples can change their minds too. They can, for instance, decide not to use the condom.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Whether or not something is elaborate doesn’t hinge on whether or not it takes effort for you after much practice. Do you seriously think nfp is not elaborate?

To gather the information on your fertility doesn’t necessitate that you use it to avoid conception, but in the case of nfp you gather the information as part of an elaborate plan to intentionally avoid conception by only having sex while infertile. You can, of course, change your mind, but that is no point at all. Abc-couples can change their minds too. They can, for instance, decide not to use the condom.

Yes, I seriously thing it’s not elaborate. It’s pretty basic and rather interesting.

 

[Persuader]

No… entirely wrong. Sex is Sacramental - it is a GOOD of marriage. There is no reason to “reject” it… avoiding it is ALWAYS sacrificial.
Obviously the reasons better be pretty good to need to sacrifice something so wonderful.

There is no reason to “reject” it, you claim, but you are still rejecting it. Are you doing it without reason? How does it help you to call it a sacrifice, you are still choosing against it, and therefore you are also rejecting it.

Also, a contraceptive couple could claim the same thing. They could claim that they sacrificed fertility, and they could cite the same reasons you do.

 

[PassingThru]

Whether or not something is elaborate doesn’t hinge on whether or not it takes effort for you after much practice. Do you seriously think nfp is not elaborate?

To gather the information on your fertility doesn’t necessitate that you use it to avoid conception, but in the case of nfp you gather the information as part of an elaborate plan to intentionally avoid conception by only having sex while infertile. You can, of course, change your mind, but that is no point at all. Abc-couples can change their minds too. They can, for instance, decide not to use the condom.

Also, I would point out Em that you seem stuck on your reality, not a thought process.

For example, you can find dozens of thread of people who have tried all the methods, different doctors, chart reviews, books, monitors, etc, and STILL have NO IDEA why they keep getting pregnant. So, if this person was on here, she could say it is always complicated, difficult and unreliable. Not to mention “elaborate”. Yes?

Of course this is not the case, I am just pointing out how short sighted your points are related to this idea. It makes no sense.

 

[Em_in_FL]

So, in summary, your position is that it is impossible to reject either sex or fertility while practicing NFP, and it is impossible to accept sex (correctly) or fertility while practicing ABC. And I would assume this is from a position of faith alone? Simple enough…

Faith, yes… alone, no.
There is a lot of logic to our faith… a lot of good psychology involved for the married couple (if NFP is used correctly)… good science (so many contraceptives are harmful to health), etc, etc…