Theological basis for NFP?

[PassingThru]

Faith, yes… alone, no.
There is a lot of logic to our faith… a lot of good psychology involved for the married couple (if NFP is used correctly)… good science (so many contraceptives are harmful to health), etc, etc…

Psychology and health benefits are not being brought up, strangely…

 

[Em_in_FL]

Also, I would point out Em that you seem stuck on your reality, not a thought process.

For example, you can find dozens of thread of people who have tried all the methods, different doctors, chart reviews, books, monitors, etc, and STILL have NO IDEA why they keep getting pregnant. So, if this person was on here, she could say it is always complicated, difficult and unreliable. Not to mention “elaborate”. Yes?

Of course this is not the case, I am just pointing out how short sighted your points are related to this idea. It makes no sense.

I have participated on many of those threads. VERY often the couples are “frustrated” and simply wanting to “vent” about NFP.
There are usually very good, sound suggestions about how to move forward and how to find more effective methods and see appropriate specialists and such… RARELY are these acknowledged or followed… it’s normally just a VENT thread.

Yes, some people experience issues using NFP… I’m not saying they don’t. But if they believe it’s the only moral recourse to avoiding conception then they’re usually motivated to make it work. Most are looking for an excuse to quit.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Psychology and health benefits are not being brought up, strangely…

Prob because the thread was titled “THEOLOGICAL basis for NFP”…

 

[Persuader]

Yes, I seriously thing it’s not elaborate. It’s pretty basic and rather interesting.

I don’t know what method you’re using, but my wife has a monitor, she checks different bodily signs every day, and she charts. I would certainly call that elaborate, and in any case, what you call it doesn’t matter. It is not like the morality changes depending on how elaborate your actions are. Hormonal contraceptives could consist in going to the doctor once every three years, and that is much less elaborate than any form of nfp.

 

[PassingThru]

I have participated on many of those threads. VERY often the couples are “frustrated” and simply wanting to “vent” about NFP.
There are usually very good, sound suggestions about how to move forward and how to find more effective methods and see appropriate specialists and such… RARELY are these acknowledged or followed… it’s normally just a VENT thread.

Yes, some people experience issues using NFP… I’m not saying they don’t. But if they believe it’s the only moral recourse to avoiding conception then they’re usually motivated to make it work. Most are looking for an excuse to quit.

You are good at avoiding a simple point. Excellent actually. My point is that the practice of NFP can indeed become quite "elaborate’. You said, specifically, it is not. We know this is not the case.

You are again projecting some defense of NFP when a simple point is being made. Ironically, it again is about the definition of a simple word. Odd, keeps happening…

 

[Em_in_FL]

You are good at avoiding a simple point. Excellent actually. My point is that the practice of NFP can indeed become quite "elaborate’. You said, specifically, it is not. We know this is not the case.

You are again projecting some defense of NFP when a simple point is being made. Ironically, it again is about the definition of a simple word. Odd, keeps happening…

No I think it speaks entirely to the point.
I’m not doing something EXTRAORDINARY in order to stay within moral guidelines… I’m doing that which should be expected. Going outside my moral guidelines would be a heck of a lot more elaborate to me!.. justifications are burdensome!

 

[mark_a]

Contraception separates the unitive from the procreative aspects of the marital act…every marital act must be open to life and unitive.

(it is not the fact that NFP is “natural” as opposed to artificle that is key here…that is just the “name” that stuck…really it is “periodic continence”)

There are a lot of articles out there that will fill this out…search the main Catholic Answers site put "contraception"in the key word…and NFP. catholic.com/ And Janet Smith has a number of articles such as “Contraception why not?”

and here are some from CUF

cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=24

NFP can help one conceive or if the couple has a serious reason…to wait.

Here is a “terse” overview

From the Compendium of the Cathechism --issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

I think this is well worth posting again.

 

[ddarko]

I think this is well worth posting again.

Excellent stuff.

Sadly, most people on this discussion thread can’t see that there is no sexual act involved in NFP.

Thus they can’t see the difference between NFP and ABC. They have forgotten or ignore the fact that one can choose to have sex or not have sex ANY TIME the married couple desires on mutual agreement. But to justify their own position, they have some how made this in to a form of rejecting the spouse

The weirdest thing is that in this view, someone having their coffee when they could be having sex with their fertile wife is actually rejecting the spouse. In fact, they make it sound like it is AN OBLIGATION to have sex with ones spouse when they are fertile and since NFP violates this, it is a sin.

Some people just want to hear what they want to believe.

I’ve basically given up trying to convince these people.

God Bless

 

[cc1999]

I have participated on many of those threads. VERY often the couples are “frustrated” and simply wanting to “vent” about NFP.
There are usually very good, sound suggestions about how to move forward and how to find more effective methods and see appropriate specialists and such… RARELY are these acknowledged or followed… it’s normally just a VENT thread.

Yes, some people experience issues using NFP… I’m not saying they don’t. But if they believe it’s the only moral recourse to avoiding conception then they’re usually motivated to make it work. Most are looking for an excuse to quit.

There are others, such as myself, that don’t practice NFP, contraception, nor anything else. Nor am I venting.

I am simply interested in particular issues that create large-scale schism between the Church and Her believers. The two major ones are this one and marriage/divorce issues. In the case of marriage, there is plenty of logical reasoning an scriptural support that is easy to follow. In the case of the subject at hand, it appears to be based in Tradition, which is far more difficult to follow, as clearly demonstrated by the incoherent discourse put forth in this thread.

 

[ddarko]

There are others, such as myself, that don’t practice NFP, contraception, nor anything else. Nor am I venting.

I am simply interested in particular issues that create large-scale schism between the Church and Her believers. The two major ones are this one and marriage/divorce issues. In the case of marriage, there is plenty of logical reasoning an scriptural support that is easy to follow. In the case of the subject at hand, it appears to be based in Tradition, which is far more difficult to follow, as clearly demonstrated by the incoherent discourse put forth in this thread.

If you are indeed Roman Catholic, you follow the church on this. After all, your foundation as a Roman Catholic is Scripture, Tradition and Church.

I can tell you that as far as I can see, the church’s position is logically consistent. The very fact that your view of the church’s position leads to clashes shows something WRONG in your view. You are obviously finding logical inconsistencies because your view and understanding of Church teaching is actually wrong. But instead of trying to understand that, you just want to keep arguing that what we say is against Church position and you’ve understood it…(and here’s the punch line)… it doesn’t make sense .

God Bless

 

[cc1999]

If you are indeed Roman Catholic, you follow the church on this. After all, your foundation as a Roman Catholic is Scripture, Tradition and Church.

In other words, set up the argument that I am wrong.

I can tell you that as far as I can see, the church’s position is logically consistent. The very fact that your view of the church’s position leads to clashes shows something WRONG in your view. You are obviously finding logical inconsistencies because your view and understanding of Church teaching is actually wrong.

Now state I am wrong.

But instead of trying to understand that, you just want to keep arguing that what we say is against Church position and you’ve understood it…(and here’s the punch line)… it doesn’t make sense

Now reiterate that I am wrong and denigrate the person by rolling your eyes.

It’s quite pathetic, but it is not bothersome, since it is exactly the result I expected. This is why discourse on forums is a waste.

 

[PassingThru]

Excellent stuff.

Sadly, most people on this discussion thread can’t see that there is no sexual act involved in NFP.

Thus they can’t see the difference between NFP and ABC. They have forgotten or ignore the fact that one can choose to have sex or not have sex ANY TIME the married couple desires on mutual agreement. But to justify their own position, they have some how made this in to a form of rejecting the spouse

The weirdest thing is that in this view, someone having their coffee when they could be having sex with their fertile wife is actually rejecting the spouse. In fact, they make it sound like it is AN OBLIGATION to have sex with ones spouse when they are fertile and since NFP violates this, it is a sin.

Some people just want to hear what they want to believe.

I’ve basically given up trying to convince these people.

God Bless

We agree there is no “sex act” in not having sex. No issue.
We agree you can have or not have sex at any time.
We state the fact that never having sex during fertility is in fact rejecting sex, your partner, and fertility during this time. That is not a judgement, that is just a simple fact. Call it whatever you want.
No one said anything like your coffee analogy. Ever. At all. Try again.
What is my position? Or Persuaders? Please, repeat it here.

If you have given up, then stop posting.

 

[Em_in_FL]

We agree there is no “sex act” in not having sex. No issue.
We agree you can have or not have sex at any time.
We state the fact that never having sex during fertility is in fact rejecting sex, your partner, and fertility during this time. That is not a judgement, that is just a simple fact. Call it whatever you want.
No one said anything like your coffee analogy. Ever. At all. Try again.
What is my position? Or Persuaders? Please, repeat it here.

If you have given up, then stop posting.

How can it be a fact in many people experience entirely the opposite?
It’s not a FACT, it’s an opinion.

Personally, myself and many others have experienced nothing less that what the church teaches in Humanae Vitae:

Self-discipline of this kind is a shining witness to the chastity of husband and wife and, far from being a hindrance to their love of one another, transforms it by giving it a more truly human character. And if this self-discipline does demand that they persevere in their purpose and efforts, it has at the same time the salutary effect of enabling husband and wife to develop to their personalities and to be enriched with spiritual blessings. For it brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers.