Theological Cases for parenting styles?

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kirabira

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>>If someone wants to present a Catholic case against some particular child-rearing practice, could he or she please do it on another, more publicly visible thread? That way, everyone will have a chance to engage in a polite, reasoned, fruitful discussion. (Well, there’s always hope! 😉 ) <<<<

This was posted in another thread and I thought it should have its own thread as the one we were in wasnt meant to be a debate place.
The mode of parenting we were discussing is Attachment Parenting and more specifically Catholic Attachment Parenting. I added Catholic because instead of just following secular AP, we look to the Catechism, Bible, Popes, all the Church teaching and theology to guide our actions in AP.

So, I suppose what the Rigbys want is to have a thread where we openly ‘defend’ why we believe AP is so overtly Catholic.
Hopefully I’ll be able to get back here to post a little something later =)
pax tibi
K
 
I understand that many of the Protestant Parenting philosophies (Ezzo, Dobson) are throw-backs to the Jansenist heresy. The body, and the child, are inherently bad and must be trained to goodness. Catholic teaching supports influencing the soul to the good and sees our fallen nature as being real, but it also emphasizes that as images of God we tend to the Good. Also the Jansenist view doesn’t respect the profound dignity of individual freedom, which is of the highest importance in Catholic theology (and attachment parenting). Popcak can probably explain this much better–and my take on Jensenism my not be all that accurate, so forgive me if I’m wrong.

Allison
 
We just do what seems best to us. In some ways (extended BFing and family bed) we are more AP but then we have had our sons circed and we spank on occasion. We don’t follow any rules other then we feel God has set for us. We love our children and our only goal is to raise them well not fit in to some parenting style.

-D
 
So, I suppose what the Rigbys want is to have a thread where we openly ‘defend’ why we believe AP is so overtly Catholic.
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Kirabira, I’m not sure why you said this, as I haven’t asked anyone to defend anything. I just found it kind of unfair and ironic that a few people, having been given a place to get uncritical support for their own child-rearing methods, were then using that “safe thread” to post messages that were critical of “non-AP parents” (as being less caring, less Catholic, theologically superficial, etc.). Whatever happened to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?” :confused:

What I did suggest was that anyone who wanted to criticize a certain child-rearing practice, from a Catholic perspective, should start a new thread on that topic. That way, everyone has an opportunity to discuss the issue. It only seems right to me. 🙂

Personally, I’d rather nobody started any such threads (this one included), as they have a tendency to turn into WWIII – at least, that’s what seems to happen on Usenet, and many other message boards. 😦 But I hope the Holy Spirit will help stop that from happening here.

:gopray2:
 
I’ve read Sears and I’ve read Ezzo (and some others) and I found some useful information in both. I think if anyone puts their faith in any guru, Catholic (as Sears is) or not (Ezzo), then they are handing over their parenting authority to someone God never intended you to give it to.

Be well-informed, look for advice if you need it, but don’t become a slave to any one particular school of parenting advice. If you find it useful, great. If not, then drop it. These authors are not God and shouldn’t try and impose their opinions universally. Only a zealot would argue that any one author has the definitive parenting advice direct from God’s lips.

Good parenting is loving your child by modelling God’s love for him or her all the time. That’s it because that’s all we are required to do for anyone in our life. Be a model of Christ to your spouse, your neighbor, your child, to all strangers and that’s “all.”
 
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aeddyblouin:
I understand that many of the Protestant Parenting philosophies (Ezzo, Dobson) are throw-backs to the Jansenist heresy.
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A couple of preliminary comments:
  1. Jansenism was a heresy in which Catholics were influenced by Calvinist Protestants. Therefore, in my opinion, Protestants can’t be called “Jansenists.” They can, however, be called “Calvinists.” (At least, some of them can. 😃 )
  2. The Church’s cure for Jansenism is…devotion to the Sacred Heart. (Just putting in a little plug for one of my favorite devotions.) And when it came to showing Calvinists the error of their ways, nobody could beat St. Francis de Sales.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us!
St. Francis de Sales, pray for us!

It’s true that a Calvinist or Jansenist philosophy of child-rearing would be likely to have certain deficiencies. Of course, it wouldn’t be the worst one imaginable…I mean, I’d personally choose it over a satanist philosophy of child-rearing, or a communist philosophy of child-rearing. :eek: Thank God, though, we have more choices than that. 🙂 Which leads to my point (and I do have one…).

I’ve noticed a tendency, among certain Catholic advocates of “attachment parenting”, to lump all possible methods of child-rearing into bins labelled either AP or Calvinist. This seems like an oversimplification, to say the least. Where would you put, say, Dr. Laura? (Oy vey! A Calvinist Jew!) How about Dr. Ray Guarendi?

Come to think of it, where would you put the vast majority of advice ever given to Catholic parents? I’ve read every book I could find on this, from the 1930’s to the present day. They’re written by priests, bishops, educators, psychologists, and experienced parents. The advice varies somewhat from book to book, although there are some common elements. None of the pre-1950’s books - and only a few of the current ones - advocate anything that resembles present-day “attachment parenting”. In fact, in terms of methods, the vast majority are closer to Dr. Dobson than to Dr. Sears.

Please note that I’m not trying to imply that there’s something “wrong” with attachment parenting. I’m just asking: Is there anyone out there who seriously believes that every Catholic parenting book written before 1960 is promoting Jansenism? And, if so, why?
 
*I’m not sure who came up with the idea of lumping all possible methods of child-rearing into bins labelled either AP or Calvinist, but it seems like an oversimplification, to say the least. Where would you put, say, Dr. Laura? (Oy vey! A Calvinist Jew!) How about Dr. Ray Guarendi?

*Amusing and thought-provoking! What a delight to read. Yes, the problem with conversations about topics like this is that they do get reduced to the worst possible simplifications. Even if there were such a thing as a parenting survey where you checked boxes to determine your parenting type (and probably there is one somewhere) --do you spank? do you breastfeed for more than 12 months? do you put your infant on a schedule? does your infant sleep in your bed? etc. – what about when you do different things for different children, as I have?

One nursed 18 months, the second only 11 and the third is on 12 months and counting. Our first never slept in a crib, the second moved out of the family bed at 4 months and the third has enjoyed the comforts of a crib since month 9. Different temperments require different solutions.

The real question with Calvinist parenting though should be are all children pre-destined to throw up on you just after you’ve changed and showered or does it just seem that way? One benefit of AP methods is that the baby often throws up on the babysling instead of my shirt. (I’m making a joke here, just in case anyone gets huffy and couldn’t tell.)
 
The Hidden Life:
I think if anyone puts their faith in any guru, Catholic (as Sears is) or not (Ezzo), then they are handing over their parenting authority to someone God never intended you to give it to.
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I agree…but isn’t Sears a Protestant? Unless someone on this forum has secretly converted him. 😉

BTW, love the sig! We were just in Combermere a month ago; what an inspiring place. 🙂 And (to get back on topic) her book, “Dear Parents,” is wonderful.
 
Whoops! You are right! Sears is not a Catholic but with eight kids maybe he should give it some thought! Don’t remember now why I thought he was, but obviously he has become the poster boy for many different niche groups. It is interesting that some Catholics have taken AP up so strongly. When I belonged to an AP support group for a while every single parent there was into New Age or atheism.

I haven’t been to Combermere, but would love to go someday. Funny, I am reading “Dear Parents” bit by bit every night before bed. Really great book. I’m already looking forward to re-reading it and I’m only halfway through it. Something about Doherty’s writings just speak to me at this stage in my life. I am constantly amazed at how much I see inspired by her writings on the internet and at the sparks of faith I see coming from that part of Canada.
 
The Rigbys:
Kirabira, I’m not sure why you said this, as I haven’t asked anyone to defend anything.

What I did suggest was that anyone who wanted to criticize a certain child-rearing practice, from a Catholic perspective, should start a new thread on that topic. :gopray2:
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Yes- and I started it for you. No one in that thread was hinting that they wanted to start a debate on parenting styles except you.

I also think you read many posts with a lack of charity-- automatically asuming the worst about what people had said.
You made huge generalizations along the lines of APers thought non-apers dont hold their children.

What I really should have asked last night was that you start your own thread OR if you had actual questions- the best way to phrase them in charity is just that- as questions. Your post was made in a thread specifically designed to not be a debate thread. The best way to keep forums organized is to start new threads for new topics instead of turning one thread into a morpohing thread.

Here is how you could have posted in more helpful and charitable way so we could address your concerns:

Instead of telling us how we were disrespecting you- maybe you could ask us to claify particular comments or ideas etc etc

*)why do you feel AP Specifically works so well with Catholic theology?

*)Do you APers here in this thread really think non-AP people don’t hold their children.

*)I’m getting the idea you think parents who arent AP are somehow less than Catholic? Can you please explain how you understand people who are parenting differently than yourselves?

I hope you can forgive my lack of helpfulness last night- I should have formulated my post better, but my main goal last night was to stop an uproar on the other unbusy thread we have.
pax tibi
K
 
Rigbys- the newest post you wrote is very good! It addresses your concerns and provokes discussion.
It sounds like you have the idea that APers see themselves as ‘superior’ and think all other parenting styles and even ‘catholic’ parenting books are ‘calvinists’.
I’m sorry you have been given that impression. We may joke amoungst ourselves about nonApers in way that is not easily understood if you are not AP- experiencing what we have experienced.
I personally feel that maybe AP people have certain gifts of the holy spirit, while people who choose another path may have other gifts of the spirit. I don’t believe you are going to ‘ruin’ your child’s life or screw them up if you dont do AP. I think that is the bottom line. You are right when you said that we all as Catholics want to do what is best for our children.
Maybe a better way to look at AP is that its a parenting vocation? For our family its not just a matter of raising children, but a matter of doing this in a such a way that provokes specific spiritual growth for us as parents, as husband and wife, as children.
This is why I called it “Catholic AP” not as a way of saying “if you are a real Catholic you will be AP”, but a way of saying “if you are a Catholic and using AP, we should be looking, reflecting on the theological teachings of the Church and understanding how AP can work with theology, deepen our spiritual life, help us to grow in holiness”.
I hope that further clarifies what CAP is about.
Your post on the other thread was hurtful to me although I am certain you didnt intend it to be. The way you formed your post seemed to be asking for ‘drama’ =) I just want to reitterate that I’m sorry for communcating poorly earlier- but this thread looks like it is doing well and ideas are being expounded upon! Great job =)
-K
 
So, I suppose what the Rigbys want is to have a thread where we openly ‘defend’ why we believe AP is so overtly Catholic.

you asked why I said this. I specifically wrote this statement to be more positive. I dont want to bash anyone’s parenting style or talk ill of people who use something else --I dont know their situation, the realities of how they utilize tequniches. I do know how I use mine and why I use them and what I contemplate so it seemed more charitable to me to be talking in a positive way about ‘defending ap’ and explaining why we feel its so specifically Catholic, than to be destructive and ask us to criticize other parenting styles. Does that explain why I wrote that? I said “suppose” because I was trying to formulate a way to address your comments. You really didnt ask questions which is problematic as I previously stated-- so I was left with having to try and form a question out of your post.

-k
 
In addressing why you wont see AP like stuff in previous parenting books from the 1930s on. This is a very small timeframe in the scope of history. I know why my grandmother who was born in 1930 parented the way she did from my conversations with her.
She still did not spank- from what she says her whole family did not spank and practiced GD which fit in with their german catholic idenity. I think one factor in parenting is experience. My grandmothers parents did not spank and this has been handed down through generations in the simple way we were all raised. So- here is a woman who isnt spanking who was born in the 30s. I don’t think she was bucking ‘popular parenting books’. I really think she just wasnt reading them.
My grandmother did not breastfeed. Why? because her sister had trouble breastfeeding her children-- her doctor told her she was starving her baby and needed to give formula. It seems to me that the medical community was excited about giving babies what they thought was better nutrition. So naturally parents who wanted to give their babies the best start went with formulas. My grandmother told me a lot about how she mixed up this formula and how difficult it was moneywise and timewise. She was a farmers wife- but they were doing what they understood as best for their babies.
Today we have the benefit of scientifically knowing that formula does not equal best. This is not to say everyone MUST breastfeed or they are bad parents. What we have also heard from Popes is that breastfeeding is a good thing. Just looking at natural law I think can tell us that. We arent trying to force people to breastfeed as APers, but change the culture/environment to recognize breastfeeding is legitimate and provide support for breastfeeding so when women have problems and concerns they can find answers in their communities.
My grandmother DID cosleep to an extent.
We cosleep here from newborn to about a year and then both of my kids have transitioned to their own rooms. We always welcome them back but my kids havent expressed any fear or even disliking to their own bed. Maybe coming from having to share a bed with us it was like wining the lottery and getting a huge mansion? lol so There is no family bed here but we are still AP.
I dont think AP is about following a bunch of rules to the letter.
My gandmother DID to elimination communication. This is where you sit baby from newborn on up on a potty. She had an outhouse no indoor plumbing. She was using cloth diapers. So she would know when baby would poo and sometimes pee and put him on the bucket. This is totally AP although you wont even find many AP people doing that!
a little more perspective for ya
 
The Rigbys:
I just found it kind of unfair and ironic that a few people, having been given a place to get uncritical support for their own child-rearing methods, were then using that “safe thread” to post messages that were critical of “non-AP parents” (as being less caring, less Catholic, theologically superficial, etc.).
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Hi THe Rigbys,

I am one if the APers you found to be critical…I am glad you are here. I just wanted you to know I was not trying to be critical of ALL parents that parent differently than I do. I was concerned over a specific person, my sister-in-law, as mentioned in my post. I am sorry you found my question to be offensive. Perhaps I should have phrased it less generally, but as it is a ‘safe-thread’, I did not take the time to be more delicate in my description of the situation.

I meant no offense. And I certainly was not saying you are a bad parent. I am a firm believer in NOT making judgemtns about people by what is posted on these boards. (Check out some of my other posts, I tend to lecture about this point I am afraid :o )

Peace to you and your family,
🙂 Lilder
 
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lilder:
I am one if the APers you found to be critical…I am glad you are here. I just wanted you to know I was not trying to be critical of ALL parents that parent differently than I do. I was concerned over a specific person, my sister-in-law, as mentioned in my post.
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Hi Lilder,

Thanks for posting. 🙂 I’m glad you didn’t mean to imply that parents who don’t “do AP” are likely to neglect their children. Can I please explain why it sounded that way?

Let’s say someone on these forums said,

“Anyone else frustrated by AP parents? My sister-in-law hardly ever disciplines her son, he runs the house, blah blah blah…”

:eek:

Do you perceive an implicit message there? I.e., that her failure to discipline is related to being an “AP parent”. This could justly be seen as unfair, inflammatory, and critical. If it were posted in a “non-AP support thread,” where AP parents weren’t given the chance to defend themselves…well, that wouldn’t make it better. IMO, it would make it worse. :o

Anyway, thanks again for clearing things up. 🙂

Mrs. R
 
I’m not sure if it’s helpful for us to think, or talk, in terms of “parenting styles.” Each family has to find its own style. Even within a given family, the style will vary, according to the children’s temperaments and the parents’ resources.

Besides, the only self-identified style I’ve seen on these forums is “Attachment Parenting.” And I doubt we could have an in-depth discussion about AP from a Catholic perspective, unless we could agree on a clear definition of the term. I’ve heard it used to mean a wide range of things,

from the practical and specific (“It means doing [insert some list of practices]”),

to the abstractly psychological (“It’s based on the theories of John Bowlby/Alice Miller/etc.”),

to the anthropological (“It’s about following the example of parents in hunter-gatherer tribes.”),

to the idealistic (“It’s a way to rid the world of violence/war/dysfunctionality.”),

to the overly general (“It’s whatever works for you; it just means valuing your kids, and meeting their needs.”),

to everything in between, plus whatever I forgot to mention. 🙂 In fact, it seems like the only universally accepted definition of AP is “those methods or beliefs followed by parents who consider themselves AP”. Which is sort of circular, isn’t it?

So, I’d prefer to talk in terms of specific questions. For instance:
  1. Do we have evidence that putting a young baby in a crib will (or won’t) jeopardize the ability to breast-feed for at least a year, as per the Holy Father’s recommendations? *]
  2. When it comes to “embodied self-giving,” when is it okay for your children to take precedence over your spouse? (For instance, what about moving your child into another room, if your spouse wants the marital bed to be private?)
…and so on.

Mrs. R

*] BTW, remember those old Catholic parenting books I mentioned? They all strongly encourage breast-feeding…as the Church has always done. I’ve never seen a Catholic argument to the effect that formula-feeding is “just as good”. Isn’t that great? 🙂
 
Mrs. Rigby, I think I see what you are getting at. I’ve had a bit of time to peruse some of the other threads pertaining to this one. It seems that “AP” is a self-defined category. What’s the point of it then? You might as well call yourselves members of the “enlightened” parenting group.

Are there really any other kinds of parenting groups? Ones that frown on breastfeeding and using a babysling? Or on sleeping with the baby in the bed for a time? In the parenting groups I was in with my firstborn, there were a variety of practices, but the litmus test for the AP group I later belonged to seemed to be whether you shopped at the natural foods co-op grocery, wore Birkenstocks and refused to wear make-up. These were not parenting choices, but rather social choices or class indicators.

What is Attachment Parenting? If you can throw out any of its practices that don’t work for you, then how useful is it as a designator?
 
The Hidden Life:
Mrs. Rigby, I think I see what you are getting at. I’ve had a bit of time to peruse some of the other threads pertaining to this one. It seems that “AP” is a self-defined category. What’s the point of it then? You might as well call yourselves members of the “enlightened” parenting group.

Are there really any other kinds of parenting groups? Ones that frown on breastfeeding and using a babysling? Or on sleeping with the baby in the bed for a time? In the parenting groups I was in with my firstborn, there were a variety of practices, but the litmus test for the AP group I later belonged to seemed to be whether you shopped at the natural foods co-op grocery, wore Birkenstocks and refused to wear make-up. These were not parenting choices, but rather social choices or class indicators.

What is Attachment Parenting? If you can throw out any of its practices that don’t work for you, then how useful is it as a designator?
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I think some people misunderstand what AP is. You are correct in noticing that some people think “natural living” is part of AP. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. HOWEVER, if you read attachment research (aka Bowles and Ainsley sp?) and popular authors (Sears and Popcak), I think the definition becomes clear, though maybe one can’t explain it in one paragraph. I have studied and written about AP for seven years now and I have come up with what I think is a good, concise definition. I posted it on another thread and if you are interested, I can post it again here. As far as being able to “throw out” some of the practices, you certainly can’t throw out ALL of the practices and still be AP. And yes, there probably is some sort of AP continuum. An important part of AP is flexibility and sensitively meeting your childrens’ needs. AP is NOT RIGID parenting. Perhaps that is why you can adapt some of the practices to the needs of your family and still be AP. Also, note that I stated “needs of the family”. AP parents have to consider the needs of their whole family. Its not that they are slaves to their children (as some people imply).
 
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