Theological Christians

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Michelle_Arnold said:
Here is the answer I gave that I think you are referring to:

I was speaking somewhat loosely when I said that an unbaptized person who believes in Christianity is “theologically Christian.” I meant it as a way to identify those people raised in a Christian culture with Christian beliefs but who have never been baptized – which is altogether possible, especially in Protestant sects that teach that “believer’s baptism” is only for those old enough to ask for it on their own. Strictly speaking, these people are not yet Christian because they have not been baptized; but they think of themselves as Christian and generally hold to the defining Christian beliefs (the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity).
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Thank you! I never expected you to come along and answer my question.
 
Mystophilus said:
Could you help me with something, then? I have been discussing this with some of the people here, and, while I can appreciate that Catholic theology is firm about the enduring effect of baptism, one of the things which has been showing up in the conversation is a conflation of “baptized” with “Christian”. This led to me wondering whether Catholic theology would then say that there can be Christians in Hell, i.e. those who, after baptism, became so hostile to God as to effect their own separation.
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It might be best to use the Ask An Apologist action. If you want to ask the question, use this link:forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=84

Speaking of Ask An Apologist, if Michelle Arnold didn’t come to answer my question on this thread, I would have ended up asking this question on Ask An Apologist.
 
Mystophilus said:
Is Satan a Christian, then? What you are saying here is that baptized people can end up in Hell, but that only means that there can be Christians in Hell if being baptized is a sufficient condition to make one a Christian, something of which I have not yet seen any demonstration.
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I think we’re running into problems with the limits of vocabulary here. The definitions we’re talking about were meant to apply to living people and they break down when we start talking about eternity. So yes, the baptized who end up in hell fit the definition of “ontological Christian” and the demons fit the definition of “theological Christian” - but that’s not necessarily helpful information.

All that really matters in the end is whether a person is a member of the Church Triumphant or the damned.
 
Mystophilus said:
Could you help me with something, then? I have been discussing this with some of the people here, and, while I can appreciate that Catholic theology is firm about the enduring effect of baptism, one of the things which has been showing up in the conversation is a conflation of “baptized” with “Christian”. This led to me wondering whether Catholic theology would then say that there can be Christians in Hell, i.e. those who, after baptism, became so hostile to God as to effect their own separation.
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If you’re simply asking whether someone who has been baptized can go to hell, the Church has always said yes. But I think you’re trying to get at something deeper. There are baptized people who don’t live the faith and unbaptized people who live their whole life for God. So who’s really a Christian?

I would answer that life on this earth is a mixed bag - you can’t separate the tares from the wheat. Many (maybe most) of us even waffle back and forth. If by asking who is a Christian, you mean who will be saved in the end - we don’t really know because we can’t see a person’s soul. Maybe the better question to ask is what does it mean to live a Christian life. That is much easier to answer; the two great commandments are a good starting point.
 
brianwalden said:
If you’re simply asking whether someone who has been baptized can go to hell, the Church has always said yes. But I think you’re trying to get at something deeper. There are baptized people who don’t live the faith and unbaptized people who live their whole life for God. So who’s really a Christian?

I would answer that life on this earth is a mixed bag - you can’t separate the tares from the wheat. Many (maybe most) of us even waffle back and forth. If by asking who is a Christian, you mean who will be saved in the end - we don’t really know because we can’t see a person’s soul. Maybe the better question to ask is what does it mean to live a Christian life. That is much easier to answer; the two great commandments are a good starting point.
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Actually, no, I am just asking what I have been asking, “whether Catholic theology would then say that there can be Christians in Hell”.
 
Mystophilus said:
Actually, no, I am just asking what I have been asking, “whether Catholic theology would then say that there can be Christians in Hell”.
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The answer to that is what do you mean by Christian? Christian is a word, as such it is a symbol used by people to reflect several different realities.

If you mean, can someone who is baptized by in hell? Yes.

If you mean, can someone who believes in the Trinity or even the entire creed be in hell? Yes.

If you mean can someone in a state of grace be in hell? No.
 
brianwalden said:
The answer to that is what do you mean by Christian? Christian is a word, as such it is a symbol used by people to reflect several different realities.

If you mean, can someone who is baptized by in hell? Yes.

If you mean, can someone who believes in the Trinity or even the entire creed be in hell? Yes.

If you mean can someone in a state of grace be in hell? No.
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Well, no: the answer depends upon what Catholicism means by “Christian”, a question which the apologists can hopefully answer for me.
 
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