Theological comparison - Catholic/Orthodox

[stuartc]

1. Original Sin

If we are able to inherit the original sin of Adam & Eve, surely we would be able to inherit the sins of all subsequent generations? Could we not also inherit sanctifying grace? Does not original sin imply a genetic/physical relationship to sin that is counter-intuitive to the separation of body and soul only connected by our actions (and not the actions of our fathers, grand-fathers, etc…)?

1. Immaculate Conception

Why would God have to create Mary immaculate, could he have not simply made Jesus immaculate? Is the immaculate state of Mary a “reward” for carrying Christ in her womb? Surely Mary, as a human, requires salvation through baptism in Christ as do all humans?

1. Holy Spirit

Why would the Holy Spirit, proceeding from Jesus as well as the Father, descend upon himself as recounted in the bible? Is this not unnecessary?

Thoughts please!

 

[bmullins]

I’ve been thinking about the filioque for a while now. This is just based on my understanding and could likely be wrong, but if Jesus and the Father are co-eternal, and all things are created by the Father but through Christ, then does it not seem to follow that the spirit would proceed from both?

 

[stuartc]

I’ve been thinking about the filioque for a while now. This is just based on my understanding and could likely be wrong, but if Jesus and the Father are co-eternal, and all things are created by the Father but through Christ, then does it not seem to follow that the spirit would proceed from both?

It could imply that the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father to the Son and then from the Son, but also from the Father? Surely the Holy Spirit would need only proceed from one or the other, but not both? As all three are God, they would then only need to proceed from the Father only?

 

[bmullins]

It could imply that the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father to the Son and then from the Son, but also from the Father? Surely the Holy Spirit would need only proceed from one or the other, but not both? As all three are God, they would then only need to proceed from the Father only?

By that logic would not the Holy Spirit need to proceed from no one? All three are God, no one would need to send the Spirit.

 

[stuartc]

By that logic would not the Holy Spirit need to proceed from no one? All three are God, no one would need to send the Spirit.

agreed! however, accepting that the Holy Spirit has to proceed from somewhere (I actually think therefore inferring a lesser status, but that’s my opinion) I would conclude from the Father alone, however my opinion could open up the possibility that if indeed lesser, then it may require to proceed from both!

 

[bmullins]

I like the way Origen phrased it myself:

“We consider therefore that there are three hypostases, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and at the same time we believe nothing to be uncreated but the Father. We therefore, as the more pious and the truer course, admit that all things were made by the Logos, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was made by the Father through Christ.”
Origen,Commentary on John,2:6(A.D. 229),in ANF,X:328

And Tertulian

“Now the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son; just as the fruit of the tree is third from the root, or as the stream out of the river is third from the fountain, or as the apex of the ray is third from the sun.”
Tertullian,Against Praxeas,8:1(A.D. 216),in ANF,III:603

“I believe the Spirit to proceed from no other source than from the Father through the Son.”
Tertullian,Against Praxeas,4:1(A.D. 216),in ANF,III:599

As to the other points:

1 - Original sin - As a protestant convert I’ve always been lectured about original sin and had the quotes form the bible given to me, consistently:

(Exodus 20:5) - “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”
(Deuteronomy 5:9) - “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”
(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
(1 Cor. 15:22) - “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.”

So I’ve never had a problem with original sin or even questioned it.

1. Immaculate Conception - From the very first time I set foot into a Catholic church this was one of my major problems. I felt there was absolutely no need for it, why would God go through all the trouble to do so? Until someone showed me the biblical comparison of Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. If God required men to take so much care in designing a ‘box’ for the tablets written in stone, how much more care would be taken in his very own designing of the Living Ark that housed the Living Word of God?

Surely Mary, as a human, requires salvation through baptism in Christ as do all humans?

I felt this was a problem as well until someone said something (I’m paraphrasing and hope I do it justice) to the effect of:

A man is walking through a jungle and he falls into a pit. I come along and pull them out of the pit. He has been saved by me.

Another man is walking through the jungle and as he starts to fall into a pit, I put my arm out and prevent him from it. He has been saved by me.

The pit is original sin. Whether or not we fall into the pit does not change the fact that Christ saves us from the pit.

 

[stuartc]

Original Sin - The references to the OT would imply that these utterances of God could (or are) taken as (or as close to as) Mitzvah by the Jewish. Therefore these are abrogated by Christ’s sacrifice as were all other Mitzvah, the only two commandments being to love God and neighbour alike. The only punishment being for the sins we commit, the only sins from which we need saved. This does not then imply we do not need baptism - for we are baptised to save our souls, so if we choose to believe in Christ then we choose to be baptised, it is a necessary formality in our faith in Christ, to allow the Holy Spirit to enter us allows Christ to enter us and then we can live our lives as Christians.

Immaculate Conception - Comparing Mary to a box… Furthermore as you rightly said, man taking care to design a box, not God! God need only create Jesus free from original sin (if indeed it exists as per previous point). NB: The immaculate conception need only be accepted if we accept original sin.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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