"Theological dialogue with Islam 'impossible,' top Jesuit says"

[rpp]

Here is an interesting article from the National Catholic Register.

It is the later part of this interview where the author got the above headline.

ncrcafe.org/node/1480

Thoughts?

 

[ralphinal]

Interesting. too bad it is in NCR.

There seems to be a measure of truth in it.

 

[rpp]

Interesting. too bad it is in NCR.

There seems to be a measure of truth in it.

Are you confusing the National Catholic Register, with the National Catholic Reporter?

The **Register **has a reputation for being faithful to Church teachings. The **Reporter **has a reputation of supporting dissident groups like Catholics for Free Choice and Roman Catholic Womenpriests.

 

[ralphinal]

Are you confusing the National Catholic Register, with the National Catholic Reporter?

The **Register **has a reputation for being faithful to Church teachings. The **Reporter **has a reputation of supporting dissident groups like Catholics for Free Choice and Roman Catholic Womenpriests.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa. I have confused the two. I feel much better now.

What is your take on it?

 

[rpp]

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa. I have confused the two. I feel much better now.

What is your take on it?

I often get the two confused myself. If it were not for the fact that I stumbled across and article from the Reporter this morning profiling (in a supportive manner) the new Bishop of North American (a woman) of the Roman Catholic WomenPriests, I would have forgotten myself.

As for the article, I thought it was very interesting. He used the concept of the Trinity as an example of a real stumbling block for the much more simple Islamic view of God. They just cannot get the fact that they are one and three at the same time, joined in a way that we cannot understand. He said he had often heard Muslims say that we worship three Gods.

He also correctly points out that Islam is not monolithic and does not have consistent theology either between the various movements (e.g. Sunni and Shi’ite) or even different countries (e.g. Pakistan and Algeria). While he did not say this, I got the impression that he felt the differences are far greater than those between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[ralphinal]

I agree. Historically, violence between Christain denominations ended a while back. I know that there are still times that it occures, but it is not institutional. It does not seem like that between the sects of Islam. From my point of view, the Trinity and the Crucifixion are too big to overcome between Christians and Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

“Theological dialogue with Islam ‘impossible,’ top Jesuit says”

Hi

In fact that is the reason why dialogue is needed.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

In fact that is the reason why dialogue is needed.

Thanks

I agree that dialog is needed, Paar, but with whom do we speak? There is no unified voice of Islam. Which sect? Can you say that if your branch entered talks with the Pope, the other groups would react calmly? Can we have dialog when so much is not uderstood between the groups? For example, all five major branches if Islamic Law calls for teh execution of anyone who leaves Islam. At the same time, you say (and it is in the Koran) that there should be no compulsion in religion. You say that Jesus did not die on the cross and that He is not God, yet we hold these facts as truths of the faith.

I think that we can talk to better understand each other, but we have a ways to go to even get to that point.

 

[paarsurrey]

I agree that dialog is needed, Paar, but with whom do we speak? There is no unified voice of Islam. Which sect? Can you say that if your branch entered talks with the Pope, the other groups would react calmly? Can we have dialog when so much is not uderstood between the groups? For example, all five major branches if Islamic Law calls for teh execution of anyone who leaves Islam. At the same time, you say (and it is in the Koran) that there should be no compulsion in religion. You say that Jesus did not die on the cross and that He is not God, yet we hold these facts as truths of the faith.

I think that we can talk to better understand each other, but we have a ways to go to even get to that point.

Hi

The difficulties are there no doubt. The same problems, even more acute, are there on the Christian side. The Christians having more that 32000 denominations, they don’t consider Pope a central authority.

Let the door remain open.

What is the opinion of that Top Jesuit on working on Unity among Catholics ,Protestants and JWs?

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

The difficulties are there no doubt. The same problems, even more acute, are there on the Christian side. The Christians having more that 32000 denominations, they don’t consider Pope a central authority.

Let the door remain open.

What is the opinion of that Top Jesuit on working on Unity among Catholics ,Protestants and JWs?

Thanks

Honestly, probably about the same. There is almost no way Christianity will reunite. There are too many reasons why, some real and some imagined.

Paar, I have appriciated talking to you on this forum. I feel that i have learned. I am still struggling with the issue of no compulsion in religion vs all Islamic law calling for death for apostates. Can you point me to an understanding?

 

[paarsurrey]

Honestly, probably about the same. There is almost no way Christianity will reunite. There are too many reasons why, some real and some imagined.

Paar, I have appriciated talking to you on this forum. I feel that i have learned. I am still struggling with the issue of no compulsion in religion vs all Islamic law calling for death for apostates. Can you point me to an understanding?

Hi

Kidly read these artilces and then we could discuss.

• Jihad - Supreme Efforts in the Way of Allah alislam.org/jihad/quran.html
• Jihad of the Pen alislam.org/library/links/00000064.html
• Jihad with Sword alislam.org/jihad/sword.html

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Paar,
from the first website

60:10 Allah only forbids you - respecting those who have fought against you on account of your religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and have helped others in driving you out, that you make friends of them, and whosoever makes friends of them-it is these that are the transgressors.

Does this mean that Allah forbids you to forgive those who hate you? That you cannot forgive those who wrong you because of your faith?

The Second website seems to claim that Shia and Sunni Muslims are not following true Islam. How is that taken by them? I like the teaching about stages of goodness on the road to holiness. From the second one

Let it be clear to all that the concept of terrestrial rule in which every believer is a Khalifa is totally alien to the spirit of Islam, and when it is coupled with the attitude enforcement being paramount, righteousness secondary, it transforms into one of the most militant and rebellious concepts of our times.

Hard to argue with that. The article does go on to discuss the use of the pen for jihad instead of the sword.

The third teaches something that Christians have understood for a while. Yes, in the past we have done things that are contrary to our faith, but we are trying to correct it today.

I am glad that you shared this with me. It does give me hope that Islam can be peaceful with non-Muslims. These sites do not answer why all five major branches of Islamic law call for the death of any male apostates

 

[paarsurrey]

These sites do not answer why all five major branches of Islamic law call for the death of any male apostates

Hi

Islam/Quran/Muhammad do not define “any five major branches of Islamic law” so it has no basis from Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

For apostates/apostacy kindly peruse following verses from Quran together with the context for undersanding the true Islamic/Quranic/Muhammad’s concept, not of his followers who may be wrong:

The apostate cannot harm the true religion, he can only harm himself -------3:145.

GodAllahYHWH promises if somebody leaves Islam out of free-will, that He would compensate and give a large party in that person’s place, so there is no need of harming such a person------5:55,

There is absolutely no punishment for the apostate in this world by hands of the Muslims, he would receive it in the hereafter -------3:90,16:107, 4:138, 2:218, 5:55.

I think you would understand.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Paar,
Thank you for that answer. So, the Koran does not call for the exicution of Apostates. Why would Shiara law do so? If this low is not based on the Koran, does it not call into question the entire religious law?

I am beginning to think that there have been a bunch of people making stuff up and teaching it to Muslims for so long that many Muslims do not know their own faith.

 

[mark_a]

Hi

In fact that is the reason why dialogue is needed.

Thanks

How can we discuss theology? Maybe we could discuss the results or fruits of theology, love for fellow man, love for God, but otherwise its apples and oranges.

The fact that we believe that Jesus is God is non-negotiable.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paar,
Thank you for that answer. So, the Koran does not call for the exicution of Apostates. Why would Shiara law do so? If this low is not based on the Koran, does it not call into question the entire religious law?

I am beginning to think that there have been a bunch of people making stuff up and teaching it to Muslims for so long that many Muslims do not know their own faith.

Hi

There is no Sharia Law except what Quran/Islam/Muhammad say.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

There is no Sharia Law except what Quran/Islam/Muhammad say.

Thanks

I understand that position, but it does not seem to be shared by the other Muslims or the world. DO a google search of Sharia Law and you will see that it is not that clear cut. I know from other posts that Allah is not a God of confusion and He is not a God that wants to make it too hard to follow him. But, it seems like that is not the case with Sharia Law.

 

[rpp]

Hi

Islam/Quran/Muhammad do not define “any five major branches of Islamic law” so it has no basis from Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

For apostates/apostacy kindly peruse following verses from Quran together with the context for undersanding the true Islamic/Quranic/Muhammad’s concept, not of his followers who may be wrong:

The apostate cannot harm the true religion, he can only harm himself -------3:145.

GodAllahYHWH promises if somebody leaves Islam out of free-will, that He would compensate and give a large party in that person’s place, so there is no need of harming such a person------5:55,

There is absolutely no punishment for the apostate in this world by hands of the Muslims, he would receive it in the hereafter -------3:90,16:107, 4:138, 2:218, 5:55.

I think you would understand.

Thanks

I appreciate the verse citations. Will you kindly peruse this verse.

Sura (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Thank you

 

[paarsurrey]

I appreciate the verse citations. Will you kindly peruse this verse.
Sura (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Thank you

Hi

Kindly see the context of the verses quoted by you, then you would understand surely.

Thanks