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ComplineSanFran
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Don’t forget that Moses spoke with God face to face.
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RebeccaJ
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There are core teachings that don’t have any wiggle room. Believing Joseph Smith is a prophet who saw in person a corporeal Father and Son standing together as individual men, is required. An individual Mormon could question this, keep it to themselves and their leaders can’t do anything about something they don’t know. But Mormon teaching is their exaltation would be in jeopardy. Their salvation would be fine. There isnt a hell in Mormon teachings.Believing their God the Father was a man like any other on some planet somewhere, eons ago, is neither here nor there. A Mormon can believe this, or not, like Jane Doe here, who appears to not believe it, but I know more Mormons personally who believe this, than don’t.
Generally, it’s Mormons on message boards who appear to not believe what Joseph Smith taught. Whether or not forum posting Mormons actually don’t believe, is hard to know, since appearances are what matter to a Mormon. And here on a non LDS forum, appearing to not have any teachings that are wayyyy off the Christian map, has an importance to a Mormon. While appearing to believe while among more Mormons, has a greater importance.
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FabiusMaximus
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OK, this is more or less what I was looking for. So a fundamentally flawed belief is dangerous for Judgment Day, even though you follow all the Temple rites, because the LDS Church officially teaches that the Trinitarian understanding of God is incorrect.
On a personal level, not knowing for sure whether God was always God or once a man is an issue of fundamental importance, and honestly I find it surprising that the LDS Church doesn’t recognize it as so. And this is a major reason (without disrespect), But anyway, I appreciate your answers.
The doubt to me seems sufficient to avoid any kind of association with God in Mormonism with the one we believe in Christianity. But then again, I wouldn’t feel comfortable at all praying together with a Muslim or a Jew, because they’re understanding of God we know is entirely flawed and incorrect. At least the Mormons will close their prayer in Christ’s name.
I guess the reason I struggle with this is because being raised up in a mainstream Christian home, these would be teachings of a fundamental importance. My parents left the Catholic Church initially because off their rejections of teachings such as the real presence, communion of the Saints, faith and works, etc. If these were considered of huge importance, how much more an issue such as the nature of God himself? But thanks for at least clarifying that a clear divergence from certain LDS teaching would indeed put your exaltation in jeopardy.
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jane_doe
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The Godhead: a core fundamental belief, deeply understood, that is frequently taught, and foundational effects the very plan of salvation.
Possible pasts of the Father: a fridge belief, very unknown, practically never even discussed, and inconsequential in it’s impact to other beliefs or practice.
There’s a huge difference.
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jane_doe
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Actually, after much prayer and study over this, I am agnostic towards the issue.
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jane_doe
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Here, I’ll share my personal thoughts here (note: this is my personal LDS perspective, and I respectfully acknowledge that other feel/believe differently):
The Trinity, particularly the doctrine of co-substantation (which is the part that LDS object to) is HIGHLY problematic and results in many other serious fallacies in Nicene Christianity. I see it making it so much harder for people to understand God, to understand His Love, to understand His Glory, to understand the sacrifice on the cross, to understand each other, and to understand themselves. Still, despite all of this this, I see and acknowledge the deep love and devotion Nicene Christians have towards God and the Savior. Despite their hugely flawed understanding of God, they still pray, live, work, honor, and rejoice Christ as His disciples. So no, I don’t believe you guys worship anything less than the true God.
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Horton
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Can you point out these " HIGHLY problematic and results in many other serious fallacies"?
“Despite their hugely flawed understanding of God, they still pray, live, work, honor, and rejoice Christ as His disciples. So no, I don’t believe you guys worship anything less than the true God”
So all Christians are flawed in their belief in God? So more than 2000 years of DOCUMETED Christian history is flawed? So it’s better to believe in some con man who looked in a hat with a couple of rocks and “found” the true God? Seriously? Joseph Smith’s story has been proven false and yet we Christians are in the wrong? :bigyikes:
One last point. It’s consubstantiation, not co-substantiation.
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lax16
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From Judaism 101:
The Nature of G-d
• Most areas of Jewish belief are open to significant dispute, but not the nature of the Creator
• There are several well-accepted beliefs about the nature of the Creator
The nature of G-d is one of the few areas of abstract Jewish belief where there are a number of clear-cut ideas about which there is little dispute or disagreement.
G-d is Incorporeal
Although many places in scripture and Talmud speak of various parts of G-d’s body (the Hand of G-d, G-d’s wings, etc.) or speak of G-d in anthropomorphic terms (G-d walking in the garden of Eden, G-d laying tefillin, etc.), Judaism firmly maintains that G-d has no body. Any reference to G-d’s body is simply a figure of speech, a means of making G-d’s actions more comprehensible to beings living in a material world. Much of Rambam’s Guide for the Perplexed is devoted to explaining each of these anthropomorphic references and proving that they should be understood figuratively.
G-d is Neither Male nor Female
This follows directly from the fact that G-d has no physical form. As one rabbi explained it to me, G-d has no body, no genitalia, therefore the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience’s sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.
Although we usually speak of G-d in masculine terms, there are times when we refer to G-d using feminine terms. The Shechinah, the manifestation of G-d’s presence that fills the universe, is conceived of in feminine terms, and the word Shechinah is a feminine word.
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lax16
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Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
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lax16
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Please give examples of where you see evidence of Christians struggling to understand God and His Love and Glory.
I am shocked that anyone would say Christians, Catholics and Orthodox especially, do not understand the sacrifice of the cross!! That is why we have and wear crucifixes. It is a constant reminder of Jesus’ sacrifice and a reminder that he is with us in our suffering.
How can someone have a hugely flawed understanding of God and yet still live as a committed disciple?
I never thought you said we worshipped anything less than the true God. I was asking for clarification from Rebecca about her post.
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jane_doe
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The same way a child can love and be devoted to their father without understanding them.
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lax16
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And how often does that happen!? I’ll answer that for one for you…almost never.
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RebeccaJ
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Like I said, you don’t believe it, or more particularly, you don’t believe Joseph Smith. I get that, as neither do I.
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Horton
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Jane - I’m still waiting for the “HIGHLY problematic and results in many other serious fallacies”.
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jane_doe
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Actually, quite commonly. For example, my 2 year old loves me dearly and full heartedly. She understands I love her, but many other things about me she doesn’t understand at all.And how often does that happen!? I’ll answer that for one for you…almost never.
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jane_doe
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A par the OP’s request, I decline this invitation to debate.
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lax16
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There is a big difference between child-like love when one is dependent upon another for food and shelter and an independent adult choosing to follow someone they do not understand.
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truthseeker32
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That is probably for the best. Everytime I convince a Mormon to expound on their criticisms of the Holy Trinity the only thing they demonstrate is that they don’t actually know what the Church believes.
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lax16
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Can you imagine anyone criticizing the Holy Trinity? You are correct, if they truly understood what the Church believes they would not do so. It’s a misunderstanding.
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Horton
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This is answer I expected. It’s easy to make claims but far more difficult to back them up. Sounds a bit like Joseph Smith?
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