Theological implications of quantum physics

[Dandelion_Wine]

Oh, and the speed of light article. Very interesting. While I’ve read about string theory and M theory or whatever, it’s hard to pull it all together to appreciate the problems. Guess that’s why I’m not a theorist.

But I know that light can be slowed downed or speeded (is that a word? - sped?) up, so how does that correlate to this ‘finding’?

 

[GeorgeCooney]

JMJ
Reading and enjoying science fiction can be a pleasureable pasttime, but if you consider yourself to be Catholic you may not ignore, change, or eliminate dogma. Everything that is not God is created by God. That includes all of its rules of existence and interaction with other existences. That creation is continuous for those of us than live in the material world. By that I mean the existence of anything that is not God must be created and maintained continuously in order to remain in existence. It cannot continue to remain in existence except during the creative act by God.

There is no such thing as “time.” Time is a mental convenience developed by man to keep track of change. To go back in time you must progress backwards through all the changes which occurred in the material world, ALL of them. The material world is a continuous stream of cause and effect. If you wish to go back in “time,” assuming you are 30 years old, you must gradually grow younger along with everything else in the Universe(s) by reversing all the changes through cause and effect that brought you to that age of 30.

There is no such thing as “time,” just like there is no such thing as a “mile.” Einstein made time the variable because it is only a theoretical element without any reality. We measure by minutes or light-years only in reference to the changes in the position of the earth’s rotation (change/cause and effect) or by the earth’s orbit in our solar system (change/cause and effect). If such speculations as discussed in the above posts lead you to deny ANY dogma of the Church, you may be in big trouble.

There is no harm in such speculation which could produce a spark to progress in our understanding of our existence, but, please, do not let it lead you down the path of heresy and eternal damnation.

 

[montanaman]

George,

No such thing as time? No such thing as a mile? I see what you’re trying to say, but it sounds suspiciously like sophistry. No disrespect intended, but I often debate with people who start denying the existence of everything, (usually starting with the meaningfulness of language, ironically), so it’s incredibly odd that you would be saying similar things.

Time, I think it’s safe to say, comes part in parcel with the material universe. The space-time continuum just is what IS.

A mile is certainly a human construct to describe a unit of distance, and we may as well call a different measure a “hajoobalah” if we want, but it doesn’t negate the existence of the mile or the “hajoobalah.”

As far as speculating on the possibility of doctrine or faith being damaged due to quantum physics, I seriously wouldn’t worry about it here. I think there’s a relationship between Catholics and quantum dreamers–usually we’re passionate nerds about both, not to the exclusion of either. If anyone’s faith is shaken because a wormhole is discovered that leads to a universe where it rains doughnuts, I doubt they had much faith to begin with.

Me, I would thank Almighty God for a parallel universe where it rained doughnuts.

 

[JimG]

A variable speed of light has been proposed recently as an alternative to “inflation” in the big bang theory to account for uniformity and to solve the horizon problem.

But since the constancy of the the speed of light has been demonstrated experimentally so often and over so many years, VSL has a long way to go before being demonstrated or accepted.

Relativity has already given us the means for time travel in at least one direction. All you have to do is travel at 99.999% of the speed of light for a few days, then turn around and return to your point of origin at the same speed, and you will find yourself in the future. This is because time will have elapsed much more slowly for you than at your origin & destination point. Only trouble is, all your friends, as well as your civilization, will be dead and gone, while you’ll only be a few days older. This time dilation effect has also been demonstrated experimentally.

JimG

 

[Stu]

Racer X:

Most people tend to think of time as this absolute stage on which the events of the Universe are played out. And Heaven too. They think of the saints as being in Heaven “right now” looking down on us “now”. But if there is something like Time in Heaven, it has nothing to do with earth-time. Time here is as much a part of the physical universe as space (they’re just part of the same thing: the space-time continuum. They can’t be separated. They’re related sort of in the way that latitude and longitude on a globe are related.)

Theorietical physics “hayseed” here.

Interesting conversation all. The point on time not being an absolute stage, I think is applicable to Mass. (This is not a joke about long-winded homilies.) My mother used to teach me that every time I did something wrong, it hurt Jesus up on the Cross. I think she was more right in that statement than she realizes. I believe, time being what it is, that Jesus is, in a way, still on the cross and whenever we celebrate Mass we too are standing with him on the hills of Calvary.

Hayseed now returning to seat

 

[GeorgeCooney]

JMJ
To: Montanaman:
Pax Domini sit semper tecum.

No disrespect taken. I have no intention to deny the existence of everything. I believe in conformity with the dogma of the Church that EVERY existence that is NOT God is created and maintained by God, including all the rules of its existence. I have no problem with multiple universes. All physical science has limitations, even though they obviously have not been reached to date. To be a believing Catholic and a scientist, I believe one must never forget that God is the Infinite, the First Cause. When a scientist comes to an unknown, he may explore his uncharted imagination, but never in conflict with dogma, and never in denial of God as the Infinite Intelligence, as the Creator of all.

God is Infinite in Its absolute sense. (The word, “infinite” is grossly misused in both everyday and in scientific parlance.) God cannot change, He has no unfulfilled potentialities. God is Existence to the infinite degree. God could create any type or number of “universes” infinitely beyond the imagination of man. Did He? However, the universe in which we seem to reside is demonstrably a chain of “cause and effect.” Another name for “cause and effect” is “change.” Everything is in motion and change. The First and Uncaused Cause is God.

Native Americans (Indians) measured change (time) in “moons.” Or perhaps some used the rise and fall of the snow level on a mountain. That put “change” in a predictable order. Today we use nano-seconds or light years. This is slightly more accurate and usable on earth. However, what if you were living on Mars or some planet in a distant galaxy? On Mars we could use an accurate correction, but what about that distant planet with a varying path about its sun and the sun a varying path around its galaxy. Our nano-seconds would be useless.

I still hold that there is no actual existence called “time,” except as a convenient way to express change and motion, the cause and effect created by God. I agree that without an orderly system of measuring change, we would be in big trouble! AND – scientific progress would be impossible for our tiny intellects. I find it no different than a “mile.” It was not uncommon in Christ’s era to measure distance in “time” as it occasionally is today. How long did it take to travel (by foot) from Jerusalem to Bethlehem? How long will your flight be to London?

Regarding your statement that speculating on the possibility of doctrine or faith being damaged due to quantum physics should not worry me here, I seriously disagree. Many, many posts on this forum (the full forum) indicate to me a serious lack of knowledge by many (not all) concerning the Truths of the Catholic Faith. If there is nothing to worry about, why during the last 6-700 years, starting in the solid Catholic atmosphere of the Middle Ages has the scientific world crowned itself as omniscient and discarded God as an unnecessary myth?

 

[chemcatholic]

dredgtone:

yeah this is a topic i could read up on for days. I read this article saying that something could come out of nothing quite easily if there were multiple universes and thus the matter for the big bang. Quite recently scientists are saying that the percentage of “dark matter” in the universe suggests that there very well may be multiple universes. The existance of God as a creator may be shaken up if the latter is true but this does mean science and belief is not compatible.

I read up on dark matter online, and I only saw one instance where a scientist believed dark matter suggested multiple universes. However, the article didn’t really explain it very well. Every other website I viewed gave no such suggestion that dark matter and dark energy suggest multiple universes or “something out of nothing”. The reason dark matter and dark energy are called “dark” is because we can’t observe them with light, which is how we view the rest of the universe. So do you care to explain how unobservability leads one to conclude or even hypothesize multiple universes?

Peace

 

[GeorgeCooney]

JMJ

This is a continuation of my two previous posts in this thread. I stated that “time” does not exist as an entity unto itself. I believe it to be a “method,” a “device,” a “system” to organize and manage changes resulting from a continuous “cause and effect” world created by God Who is the First and Uncaused Cause… The Indians counted “moons” or seasonal changes. We use earth rotations, earth orbits, and divisions and multiples thereof to organize the changes in our material world. We could use many other things, if we wished, but a standard is necessary. An hour (1/24 of our planet’s rotation time) is not the same on Mars. A year (1 orbit of the earth around our sun) is not the same on Mars (or anywhere else). All we are using when we refer to time is a standard to measure change.

I propose that everything we have experienced in our universe is a progression of cause and effect. I will not accept anything in opposition to the dogmatic Truths of the Catholic Church. Namely, God is the Cause of all existence (by any description) which is not God, and God maintains that existence for as long as it exists.

To ”travel back in time,” to be possible, would mean to reverse the cause and effect progression which proceeds from God as the First Cause. If I were to travel backwards to a previous “time,” it would mean I would have to regress through the changes (by causes and effects) that I have experienced, which means all that had ANY effect on me would have to regress also. That ultimately would mean everything in the universe must regress. I could not go back without everything else going back. I don’t doubt this is possible for God to effect, but not for man.

It would be like recording a motion picture of all the changes in the universe for a given span of causes and effects, and playing the film backwards. By regression I do not mean cycling, nor events occurring in a sine-wave pattern, nor a yo-yo effect. None of those are regressive. Some have proposed that the universe began with a big bang and someday will reach its maximum expansion and begin to collapse back to its pre-big bang size, only to start all over again. I see no evidence in my limited capacity that this has happened or will happen, but I do not exclude the possibility as long as it is a finite cycling. However, that is still progression, not regression. Regression requires that the “effect” of a “cause” reverse or regress backwards. Cycling even of the universe through repeated big-bangs is continued progression. The cause of contraction would be the deterioration of the expansion forces to be overcome by the contraction forces, whatever they might be. This would not be an “effect” turning back on a “cause”.

I’m up against the 3000-character limit again and believe further explanation would only be repetetive. God bless all. Progress in these discussions with an uncompromising eye on Church dogma.

 

[crimson_dragon]

the idea behind time travel is that you go back or forward but you stay the same as everything around you changes. its not an impossible idea, the example of the spaceship going fast enough while everything ages around it is entirely possible, its also perhaps possible for a person to be locked in a capsule, sent through an artificial wormhole and reappear in the past with no changes to them personally, this was a smiliar idea to the machine used in the movie and novel by carl sagan called “contact”