Theology and Pets

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This discusion always makes me wonder why in the garden of eden (before the fall of Adam) did God create animals if they where never part of the master plan?
Being a part of the “master plan” and being made for eternity are not the same thing. Animals can be part of God’s plan without having an eternal destiny. Rocks and stars and rose bushes are all a part of the master plan without having an eternal destiny.

All things God made were made for Man. Man is the reason for, and summit of, all of creation.
 
Being a part of the “master plan” and being made for eternity are not the same thing. Animals can be part of God’s plan without having an eternal destiny. Rocks and stars and rose bushes are all a part of the master plan without having an eternal destiny.

All things God made were made for Man. Man is the reason for, and summit of, all of creation.
I can understand what your saying. I think the problem is when we try and imagine what heaven or a new earth would be like. I am not hoping to have all my dogs back (good ridence to a few), just maybe hoping to see animals in what I percieve as eternity. Just the word Earth, or new Earth makes me think of a vast wilderness.
 
See my previous Catechism citations that state man alone is called to share in God’s own life. That is the Beatific Vision.

See also the Catechism citation regarding man’s use of animals as food and domestic beasts of burden. That same section clearly states that man should not direct to them the affection due only to humans.

The Church’s teaching regarding the lack of a spiritual soul of animals is clear. The Church’s teaching that only man is destined for Heaven is clear. The Church’s teaching that pets should not receive the affection due only to human persons is clear.

The idea that we “need” pets in Heaven or we “love our pets so much” that Heaven would not be complete without pets is to give pets affection due only to persons. It is disorderd. That is my opinion derived from the teachings of the Catechism on animals in general and pets in particular.
Okay, I should think and reread my posts more carefully… nothing seems to be coming out the way I want it to. I agree with you, that we don’t need animals in heaven(an awful choice of words on my part x.x) etc. I should have read your earlier posts as well. So, we were more-or-less on the same page, and I seem to have annoyed you, so I apologize.

However, I do think that there is a strong possibility that there will be animals in heaven, not because we need them, but as a sort-of bonus(not an accurate analogy, I know). I did read somewhere that, besides the Beatific vision, there would be ‘extra’ happinesses in heaven, which makes sense to me… but, I’m not God, so I don’t know for sure. I know, no matter what, if I get to heaven, I’ll be happy, because that’s all God wants for me, and everyone else.
 
I understand all your reasoning, all your kindly explanations, but there is one thing I do not grasp (nor have I ever grasped this). How can a soul that God created, simply cease to exist? It just rubs against the grain of sense. I don’t mean to sound ignoarnt or anything, but i just don’t get it.
 
I understand all your reasoning, all your kindly explanations, but there is one thing I do not grasp (nor have I ever grasped this). How can a soul that God created, simply cease to exist? It just rubs against the grain of sense. I don’t mean to sound ignoarnt or anything, but i just don’t get it.
It’s not a spiritual soul-- one which has intellect and will. Man and angels possess a spiritual soul-- intellect and will, the capacity for knowing and loving.

Animals and plants have onlymaterial souls-- the life force, the animating principle of the body. A material soul ceases when the body ceases.

I recommend Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed if you want to study the theological underpinnings of body, soul, spirit, creation, etc.
 
Thank you immensely! I will definately look into getting this book.

This is the first thread I have begun in which the question I asked has actually been answered :extrahappy:

Please, continue the discussion. I love the topic!
 
Pumpkin, you didn’t annoy me.

As for “extra” happiness in heaven… I would suggest that your notion is not supported by Catholic doctrine. The Beatific Vision is complete, total, and sufficient-- it is perfect. There can be no extra happiness beyond direct knowledge of the Trinity.
 
The Church’s teaching regarding the lack of a spiritual soul of animals is clear. The Church’s teaching that only man is destined for Heaven is clear.
What about the prophecies that the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc.? Heaven will be a place, the new earth, on which we will exist with new bodies. Surely only we will participate in the beatific vision, but why won’t animals be there on the new earth, as they were there on the old earth, even before the fall?
The Church’s teaching that pets should not receive the affection due only to human persons is clear.
The idea that we “need” pets in Heaven or we “love our pets so much” that Heaven would not be complete without pets is to give pets affection due only to persons. It is disorderd.
You’re making the same mistakes Protestants make regarding Mary. Love is not a zero-sum game, and you can’t tell the kind of love by mere appearance. My wife loves our dog very much, and shows it. I have no doubt that she wants to see him in heaven. But that doesn’t mean that her love for our dog is of the same kind as her love for me or any other human being. I know for a fact that she wouldn’t hesitate, if necessary, to put our dog down if he even posed a danger to a human being. Her incredible devotion to our dog may seem to you to be “affection due only to persons,” but you’re not properly the judge of that, just like random Joe Protestant isn’t properly the judge of whether Joe Catholic’s devotion to Mary ascends to the cult of adoration due only to God.

Likewise, you seem to be making the mistake of believing that a great love for an animal somehow detracts from our ability to love people or to love God. Again, you’re making the same mistake that random Joe Protestant makes when he thinks that Joe Catholic’s devotion to Mary and the saints somehow detracts from his worship of God. It’s not a zero-sum game. My wife’s love for our dog increases her love for me since he is something that we share together, and it certainly increases her love for God as any blessed gift from God does.

The beatific vision isn’t going to be a whole bunch of Catholics staring at God’s cosmic bellybutton for all of eternity. We won’t lose our personality or individuality when we enter into heaven. In fact, I think our personalities will only truly develop when we’re in heaven. Let me give you an example.

I love astronomy. I always have. NASA pictures excite me like little else does. I’ve rented “Contact” and skipped through all the “plot” just to watch the ending when Jodie Foster is flying through the galaxies in her alien bubble. Here on earth, however, I can’t really develop my love for astronomy–I don’t have the education I need to do work in astronomy, nor the focus necessary to receive such a specialized education. The closest I’m going to get to flying through the galaxies in an alien bubble, at least in this life, will be a nice telescope in my backyard.

In heaven, that will be different. In the beatific vision, I will be able to search deeper into astronomy than I ever would be able to in this life. I’ll see things that make NASA pictures look bland and “Contact” look like a comic book. How do I know this? Because “the heavens proclaim the glory of God.” God didn’t make the stars in the sky just to proclaim His glory for a few thousand years and then to disappear. He didn’t create our bodies just for our short sojourn here on earth: He created them for eternity. “Creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the Sons of God.” In the beatific vision, I know I will be spending some serious time hearing the heavens proclaim the glory of God.

My wife, however, doesn’t love astronomy like I do. What she loves are animals. Animals of all sorts–she’s just over a year from getting her DVM. In heaven, I have no doubt that she will see in the beatific vision animals through whom she can perceive the invisible attributes of God more clearly than she could in this dark, earthly mirror of reality. If that’s the case, why shouldn’t those animals be the pets that she already loves?

Jeremy
 
What about the prophecies that the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc.?
That may or may not be literal. This imagery may be symbolic.

If it is literal, it is a huge leap from animals existing to specific animals being reincarnated.
Heaven will be a place, the new earth, on which we will exist with new bodies. Surely only we will participate in the beatific vision, but why won’t animals be there on the new earth, as they were there on the old earth, even before the fall?
There may or may not be animals in the New Creation. This is different from believing that Happy, my dog from 4th grade, will be in Heaven.
You’re making the same mistakes Protestants make regarding Mary. Love is not a zero-sum game, and you can’t tell the kind of love by mere appearance.
I didn’t say I could.

People who exclaim that they could not possibly be happy in heaven without a particular pet-- and on these type threads I’ve seen them go so far as to say they would not want to go to Heaven if their pets won’t be there-- is a disordered attachment to pets. I did not say attachment, in general, was disordered.
Her incredible devotion to our dog may seem to you to be “affection due only to persons,” but you’re not properly the judge of that, just like random Joe Protestant isn’t properly the judge of whether Joe Catholic’s devotion to Mary ascends to the cult of adoration due only to God.
You are way out in left field. I was stating what the Catechism teaches regarding love of pets.

I don’t know your wife, and cannot make any assessment of her relationship to your pet. I did not state any particular person had a disordered attachment to pets, only that the Catechism clearly teaches that this sort of attachment is wrong.
Likewise, you seem to be making the mistake of believing that a great love for an animal somehow detracts from our ability to love people or to love God.
Your assumption is incorrect. That is not my position. My position is, animals do not possess the faculties necessary to enter into the Beatific Vision. People do.
It’s not a zero-sum game.
I did not say it was.
My wife’s love for our dog increases her love for me since he is something that we share together, and it certainly increases her love for God as any blessed gift from God does.
That is nice, but it’s not relevant to whether or not animals possess immortal souls capable of entering into the Beatific Vision. The Church teaches they do not.
The beatific vision isn’t going to be a whole bunch of Catholics staring at God’s cosmic bellybutton for all of eternity.
God does not posess a belly button, therefore I would venture that you are correct. However, we will eternally contemplate God.
We won’t lose our personality or individuality when we enter into heaven. In fact, I think our personalities will only truly develop when we’re in heaven.
Yes, we remain distinct while at the same time fully immersed in the Beatific Vision.
If that’s the case, why shouldn’t those animals be the pets that she already loves?
It is not “the case”. It is your speculation of what the case may be.

I am going by what the Church actually teaches: only Man is destined for the Beatific Vision and only man has a spiritual soul that is immortal.
 
Job 12: 7-10

But now ask the beasts to teach you, and the birds of the air to tell you;

Or the reptiles on earth to instruct you, and the fish of the sea to inform you.

Which of all these does not know that the hand of God has done this?

In his hand is the soul of every living thing, and the life breath of all mankind.

I ve always liked this verse in regards to nature and Gods creatures.
 
Surely only we will participate in the beatific vision, but why won’t animals be there on the new earth, as they were there on the old earth, even before the fall?
Maybe there will be, and we will find out for sure when that time comes – and anyone currently alive on earth, who claims to know now, is just speculating. 🙂
Her incredible devotion to our dog may seem to you to be “affection due only to persons,” but you’re not properly the judge of that, just like random Joe Protestant isn’t properly the judge of whether Joe Catholic’s devotion to Mary ascends to the cult of adoration due only to God.
:amen:

It sort of bugs me when people claim that loving our pets means we don’t love people, or caring about animals means we don’t care about babies being aborted. There’s a failure of logic in there somewhere. :rolleyes:

**Crazy Internet Junkies Society (Mudgie/Junkie Hybrid)
**Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
 
I am going by what the Church actually teaches: only Man is destined for the Beatific Vision and only man has a spiritual soul that is immortal.
And, as I mentioned in my post, I recognize that. I don’t think I’m the only one here who understood you to be going further, but if I was, my mistake.

Jeremy
 
…The beatific vision isn’t going to be a whole bunch of Catholics staring at God’s cosmic bellybutton for all of eternity.
Ha! Yeah, like a bunch of stoned hippies all eating crisps and staring at a psychedelic poster lit with ultraviolet? It has to be a bit more intense than that I’d say.😃
I’ve rented “Contact” and skipped through all the “plot” just to watch the ending when Jodie Foster is flying through the galaxies in her alien bubble. …The closest I’m going to get to flying through the galaxies in an alien bubble, at least in this life, will be a nice telescope in my backyard.
I watched that very movie last night for about the tenth time. As someone else said here, you don’t know that. When you die, you may be given a few seconds (in God’s time - a thousand years perhaps in our sense of time) to do that and see firsthand all the beauty of creation before you move on. Imagine witnessing a supernova up close!

It would not be anything against the Catechism or any other belief for such a thing to happen. I cannot explain why I think this, but as they implied in the movie, if humanity is the only sentient beings in the universe, it would be an awful waste of space. Likewise, it would be an awful waste of creation to have all that universe out there when possibly no living creature will ever actually see it.

Even animals, trees, pets, sunsets, etc could be seen in their greatest perfection before we actually arrive at our final destination. Of course if this is covered in the Catechism with explanations of time and space and the theoretical physics involved, then I retract my vision of what it might be like. I am thinking that if I (a mere mortal) can think of such a wonderful thing to give a person when they die, then God must have something planned that is at **least **as grand???
 
I’m really kinda surprised that no one has brought up this passage of scripture from Ecclesiastes 3:18: I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.
19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21: Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

When I first read that I was kinda taken aback, especially since I grew up with verse 20 quoted to me every Ash Wednesday. “Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.”

This passage does seem to support the idea that we don’t know for sure that animals do not enjoy some sort of reward from God in Heaven.

Me? I often ask God to bless our animals for their friendship and companionship. I wonder what St. Francis of Assisi would offer to this discussion…🤷
 
Good points CM.

Your explanation seems the most concrete one yet. After all, :bible1: the Bible has the answers. I’m sure that we don’t know the whole story behind animals, their souls, and their ultimate destination or lack thereof.

My basic question is, “How can a soul simply cease to exist?”
 
The mountains themselves skip and dance when Hashem speaks.

Who does He bless first in the Bible? It is not man.

John Paul II’: “the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren”, and that animals are “fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect” and are “as near to God as men are”.
www.saintfrancisfoundation.com

ROMANS 8:19-21 “the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
(KJV).

LUKE 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’" (NKJ)

REV. 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (KJV)

ECCLESIASTES 3:18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals”. (NKJ)

ECCLESIASTES 3:19-20 Man’s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all return. (NIV)

LUKE 3:6 “all flesh shall see the salvation of God.” (KJV)

PSALM 36:6 Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD. (NRS)

GENESIS 1:30 and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so. (DBY)
 
I understand all your reasoning, all your kindly explanations, but there is one thing I do not grasp (nor have I ever grasped this). How can a soul that God created, simply cease to exist? It just rubs against the grain of sense. I don’t mean to sound ignoarnt or anything, but i just don’t get it.
God creates from nothing and holds His creation in existence. He can destroy what he creates by no longer holding it in existence. It goes back to nothing.
 
(I don’t know how to do the fancy two poster quote thingie yet, sorry, but this is in response to 1ke and jemfinch’s previous posts).

If the Beautific Vision is where we all contemplate God, yet retain our individual personalities (which, I can’t quite wrap my mind around yet), then how do we explain saintly intercession? If there’s no action other than contemplation, how does that work?

And if there’s interest on the part of the saints in heaven to help us out, and if contemplation of God’s creation (stars and animals included) is part of the Vision, then what’s to say specific animals which were part of God’s creation aren’t re-created to better contemplate? After all, if specific stars we’re familiar with, but burned out before we died are available for contemplation, why not pets?

I don’t know. The whole thing sounds vaguely horrifying to me (which I know indicates both an unreadiness for heaven and limited understanding of it on my part), but just “sitting around” (which again, I’m sure we’re not, but this is how it looks in my mind), staring at God for all eternity, either would involve a massive alteration of my personality (which would refer back to the “me not ready” part), or else some sort of ACTION to go with contemplation. It’s been hard enough for me to sit still long enough to write this post, forget about eternity.

C
 
…If there’s no action other than contemplation, …
I always figured that if God made us in his image, that might include a part of his image that involves the desire to be doing something???

I think that Heaven would involve (at some point) a little work to do. Perhaps one might start with just pure contemplation and then be given something to do to be useful. Perhaps you would start by helping with transferring of souls, then at some point become more like an angel and intercede with events on Earth???
The whole thing sounds vaguely horrifying to me
I agree. Not much to look forward to …to spend eternity just sitting around being supremely happy as though our souls were in jars surrounded by a nourishing liquid and sitting on a shelf with billions of other jars??😃

I personally would like to have the job of taking care of the birds if they appeared in Heaven. I might even have the job of matching up the animals with their previous owners??🤷
 
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