Theology: Is Hell Crowded or Empty?

[catholictiger]

someone showed me this blog entery of Father Barron’s i’m sure many of you have heard of him maybe some of you are avid readers of father Barron. I just wanted to see your thoughts on this recent blog post. Sorry if someone already posted this.

ill let the blog do the talking for me

An internet controversy is percolating around a recently published book by well-known evangelical preacher Rob Bell. In this text, Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived, Bell apparently advocates the “universalist” position on salvation, according to which everyone in the end is saved and that Hell, accordingly, is empty. Many of his evangelical co-religionists are arguing that this doctrine runs counter to classical biblical Christianity and is designed to appeal to a trendy post-modern audience for whom the only unforgiveable sin is to be “exclusive.” This dust-up over Hell made the main page of the CNN website the other day and has prompted tens of thousands of responses and questions. Obviously Hell is still (forgive the pun) a burning question among both believers and non-believers.

Now in the wake of this condemnation, other theologians moved practically to the other extreme. St. Augustine, fifth century bishop of Hippo, held that original sin had produced a massa damnata (a damned mass) of human beings, out of which God, in his inscrutable grace, has deigned to pick a few privileged souls. Thus, Augustine clearly believed that the vast majority of the human race would be damned to hell. And though it makes me uncomfortable to admit it, my hero, St. Thomas Aquinas, followed Augustine in holding that a very large number of people are Hell-bound; he even taught that among the pleasures that the saints in heaven enjoy is the contemplation of the suffering of the damned!

Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside not from the outside. The existence of Hell as a real possibility is a corollary of two more fundamental convictions, namely, that God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down even the most recalcitrant sinner.

wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/March-2011/Theology-Is-Hell-Crowded-or-Empty.aspx

 

[Ashton_Gaskill]

I just had a similar discussion with a friend last night. My thoughts on this topic are essentially the following:

God wants everyone to be with Him in Heaven. However, He gave us free will because love is not love if it is not freely given, which we could not do without free will. So we have the ability to do choose God or to not choose God.

But what does “choosing God” really mean? I could go into it a bit more, but I’m going to boil it down to Jesus’s top two commandments: Love God and love one another. God wants us to love everyone. So if we live lives of love, we can be with him in eternity. If we choose to live lives without love (with anger, hate, or lust) then we get to live without God.

Of course, being human, we can never live perfectly loving lives. This is where God’s love and grace comes in. God decides whether we have love or anti-love in our heart. He decides whether we did god enough or not. All we can do is try out best and not be deterred when we fail. As long as we truly desire to live in His love, we’ll be fine.

So, in conclusion: Choose to live a life of love and go to heaven. Choose to live a life of hate and go to hell. The choice is yours.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

So, in conclusion: Choose to live a life of love and go to heaven. Choose to live a life of hate and go to hell. The choice is yours.

Does committing one mortal sin at the very end of your life (thus dying outside the state of grace) constitute living a life of hate?

Heaven or Hell is determined at the end of our lives when we die, and has everything to do with our exact state at that point in time. Our entire lives are meaningless in the end. Our present condition is what matters.

 

[mellestad]

If no-one ended up in Hell for eternity then the word choice of the Bible would seem rather odd to me. But I think the same thing for the arguments Lewis made. If that was the reality of the thing, I’d think it would just be explained that way by the authors.

I understand the difficulty that leads to these discussions though. I’d be skeptical of anyone who claims to have a good grasp on what Hell might be. I dunno.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

They’re already making room down there for the cast of Jersey Shore

 

[thirddec]

If hell exists then it will be both empty(bar 1) and full; each individual there will be in their own private hell alone but all the private hells will merge into one very crowded one.

It is almost more problematic hell than heaven as to imagine saintly people to be so engrossed in their own pleasure while oblivious to the immense suffering of others srta seems the opposite to the qualities that would earn them a place in heaven to start.

It doesn’t actually really help in spiritual developement in my mind thinking about heaven or hell as afterlife but rather the apparent heavens and hells that exist in this world and how we should respond.

Love and Respect

 

[svid2]

I think it’s fairly crowded. Only maybe the damned don’t know it, they are suffering horribly and think they’re alone.
I read somewhere that the damned don’t want to leave hell, they hate it but hate everyone else, too, including God. They actually want you and me there so we can be miserable, too.
I’m considered a ‘nice’ pleasant and friendly person. ‘Nasty’ people don’t want me around. They only like being around other ‘nasty’ types. They only blame others when anything goes wrong, and I think hell must be like that.I hope I’m not judging people, but we all know people who only can stand being around a few people, people who hate and gossip. I pray for these people. They make me feel sorrow and pity, and so do the damned.
Okay, enough, svid2.

 

[faithfully]

If hell is empty… where is Satan and friends?

 

[roseofshannon]

With all due respect to St. Thomas Aquinas, I don’t understand how the Saints in heaven can enjoy contemplating the sufferings in hell.

Wouldn’t that be malice?

 

[PatrickSebast]

If no-one ended up in Hell for eternity then the word choice of the Bible would seem rather odd to me. But I think the same thing for the arguments Lewis made. If that was the reality of the thing, I’d think it would just be explained that way by the authors.

I understand the difficulty that leads to these discussions though. ** I’d be skeptical of anyone who claims to have a good grasp on what Hell might be. ** I dunno.

Considering even the Church and our Popes have had struggles with coming to an understanding of Hell and despite the teachings that universalism is a bad doctrine the Catechism itself expresses a hope for the idea of universal salvation:

*· 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).

· 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’*

And JP2 in his encyclical Redemptoris Missio expressed that universal salvation was a hope and possibility while still acknowledging that eternal damnation was also a possibility I would say that doubting anyone who claims a clear understanding of Hell is a good practice. If 2000 years of theology and discussion can still leave the Church in muddled position then the idea that a single individual would be imparted with any sort of perfect knowledge on the matter is quite suspect.

 

[Lancer]

First…The Catechsim…

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of** hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny**. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion:** "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many**. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this,** a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.** In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT **
1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:
All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence**."627

Second…Holy Bible…The Word Of God

Scripture gives us the truth about everyone being saved…I submit**…Pastor Bell**…as fine a person and well meaning as he is…he is simply “smelling something other than roses”. Here is what The Truth says…

**Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition **
THE LETTER OF JUDE

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he * who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; 7*** just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities**, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. 8 Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones.

Lastly…an observation:

With~ @6 billion people on the planet…and @4 billon of them professing belief in **the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob **
**(**13 million+ Jews…1.2 billion+ Catholics …1.1 billion+ protestant Christians… 250 million+ Orthodox Christians…1.5 billion Muslims )

With all of us “4 billion believers”…even with only moderately lukewarm believers and practitioners of our faith traditions…if we were all going to get to heaven with “pastor Bell’s …no sweat…piece of cake… a walk in the park…theology.”…you have to believe that the world today…would have to be a far better place than it is…I mean Pastor Bell just doesn’t make sense…even without The Word of God saying he is wrong. Just look at the carnage of the 20th Century…and the 21st isn’t starting off much better.

Pax Christi

 

[PatrickSebast]

With all due respect to St. Thomas Aquinas, I don’t understand how the Saints in heaven can enjoy contemplating the sufferings in hell.

Wouldn’t that be malice?

I don’t find it to be a really palpable idea either, but we are in no way required to believe in every individual teaching of Saints or even Church Doctors. If we were there would be quite the conflict when St. Therese’s writings on Hell were compared to St. Aquinas’.

I suspect whatever the truth is, it isn’t something that a human can easily grasp anyway.

 

[StevieD]

Our Lady said at Fatima that “…many souls go to hell…” she also said that sins of the flesh were a major reason for that situation. If that was the case in 1917, what is it like now?

 

[catholictiger]

did anyone read father barron’s blog entry, none of you have addressed his post yet I would love if you would

so please read father barron’s blog then respond thanks

 

[StevieD]

did anyone read father barron’s blog entry, none of you have addressed his post yet I would love if you would

so please read father barron’s blog then respond thanks

I have read the blog and it doesn’t change the clear scriptural indications that Hell is real and people go there and go there forever. He said that it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born, if Judas was to spend eternity in heaven, then Jesus’ words would not be true. It also doesn’t change Our Lady’s words at Fatima about the fate of many nor those of many saints on the subject. Hell is real, people go there and stay there forever. That is the unfortunate truth taught by the Church since its beginnings.

 

[Spirit1333]

However, what about the words of our Lord Jesus in Mathew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few”

Then, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord did we not propesy in your name and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’.” Mt 7: 21-23.

Also, regarding the parable of the weeds and good seed Jesus says “…, so will it be at the close of the age. the Son of Man will send His angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth” Mt 13:40-42

This seems to tell me that at least for a while Hell will have somewhat of a crowd. If it is eternal and/or is emptied out at some point or something like that, only our Creator knows

 

[PatrickSebast]

I have read the blog and it doesn’t change the clear scriptural indications that Hell is real and people go there and go there forever. He said that it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born, if Judas was to spend eternity in heaven, then Jesus’ words would not be true. It also doesn’t change Our Lady’s words at Fatima about the fate of many nor those of many saints on the subject. Hell is real, people go there and stay there forever. That is the unfortunate truth taught by the Church since its beginnings.

The Church does not claim knowledge or certainty of the location of Judas’s soul, and thus we as Catholics have no authority to make a definitive statement about it one way or the other.

 

[PatrickSebast]

did anyone read father barron’s blog entry, none of you have addressed his post yet I would love if you would

so please read father barron’s blog then respond thanks

I didn’t read it originally because I assumed you had highlighted all the main points in your initial post, but even having read it I can’t say it changes anything. The Church teaches us to hope and pray for the salvation of all men and he is simply repeating that. It may not happen, I recognize that as well, but I certainly hope for it.

 

[MarcusAndreas]

I’ve been led to believe that Heaven and Hell have an equal population because the two “locations” are actually the same “place”, that is, the immediate, uncensored presence of God, which to those who love God it would be unparalleled joy, but to those who hate Him, it will be unbearable torment. The damned souls chose themselves over God, and they are experiencing the effect of the immediate presence of God while intentionally denying themselves the adequate preparation, which is of course repentance and love. They are entirely self-sufficient by their own will and are suffering for it. The total hate they are consumed in would produce the ultimate result of experiencing being utterly alone, while in fact you are being burnt alive by the love of God. The soul’s natural desire is God, and this natural desire has been frustrated sempiternally by the second nature that grew and consumed the soul like cancer.

As for those who love God, they are the ones who have been rendered worthy, through cooperation with grace and the sacraments, and will enter into the eternal light and experience the love of God not as pain but as eternal happiness and the true fulfillment of the natural desire of the human soul.

 

[puzzleannie]

personally I think CS Lewis’ analogy of hell in the Great Divorce is quite valid, a busload, then a city, then a country of people who can’t stand being around each other and keep moving progressively further apart, all the while congratulating themselves they are the “right sort” and the others are outsiders