Theology of Desire

[Bubba_Switzler]

In another thread:

At some point, you might decide that it’s not really your heart you want to follow, but God’s heart. On that day, you will begin your journey into the Catholic Church.

Who asked:

“What do you want?”

“Do you want to get well?”

“What do you want me to do for you?”

And who said:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

 

[stopping]

I just got an email notice from a Google Alert for the phrase “Theology of Desire” pointing to this post! Wish I had found it sooner, as I would have joined the discussion. It is one of my favorite topics of contemplation.

I have a blog devoted to the idea of a Theology of Desire. Please check it out!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Since nobody else showed any interest in this topic, maybe you can give us a quick summary of your thoughts and point us to some introductory posts in your blog to illustrate your ideas on this topic.

 

[fbl9]

Hi there Bubba…You are an interesting poster,if one didn’t know better(going by some of your posts)they would think you are a devot catholic
I desire to be with Christ.How do i get to be with Him?by dieing of course.No matter one’s beleif this is the only way to be with Him.The only problem is that this is the last step in the journey.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Hi there Bubba…You are an interesting poster,if one didn’t know better(going by some of your posts)they would think you are a devot catholic

Well, I’m a devout something and I haven’t been excommunicated (yet).

I desire to be with Christ.How do i get to be with Him?by dieing of course.No matter one’s beleif this is the only way to be with Him.The only problem is that this is the last step in the journey.

If you’re in a hurry you can always go preach the Gospel in North Korea or Saudi Arabia.

But what is the purpose of life, after all? I don’t think Catholicism has a very good answer to this.

The simplest way I like to pose this question is as follows: After a Catholic child is baptized, it’s got a clean soul. If the child dies (or is murdered, say) it goes straight to heaven. So the rest of the child’s life is nothing more than an exposure to Satan’s temptations. If the child is pure and saintly, he may pass through this danger and emerge at the same point as when he was first baptized. That’s life?

 

[fbl9]

Well, I’m a devout something and I haven’t been excommunicated (yet).
Bubba Switzler;4878762If you're in a hurry you can always go preach the Gospel in North Korea or Saudi Arabia.:

A few yrs ago i would have been game for that,but as it stands now i gots me wrinkles to iron out.

[But what is the purpose of life, after all? I don’t think Catholicism has a very good answer to this.] Does any one else for that matter.

The simplest way I like to pose this question is as follows: After a Catholic child is baptized, it’s got a clean soul. If the child dies (or is murdered, say) it goes straight to heaven. So the rest of the child’s life is nothing more than an exposure to Satan’s temptations. If the child is pure and saintly, he may pass through this danger and emerge at the same point as when he was first baptized. That’s life?

i think the thought that many fathers may have had,is for God to take their children home before they lose thier innocence due to this world.
Ever get the feeling that when something is "too easy"something is wrong?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

i think the thought that many fathers may have had,is for God to take their children home before they lose thier innocence due to this world. Ever get the feeling that when something is "too easy"something is wrong?

After experiencing being a father, I’m much less inclined to the view that children are born innocent and corrupted by the world. I’m skeptical of the efficacy of Baptism but I don’t doubt the reality of Original Sin.

 

[Michael_David]

After experiencing being a father, I’m much less inclined to the view that children are born innocent and corrupted by the world. I’m skeptical of the efficacy of Baptism but I don’t doubt the reality of Original Sin.

After being a son, brother, husband, father, grandpa and friend, I find that life is for living.

It’s simply the ‘being’ of human being.

And, what does that entail? At the core, we want to live. Survival instinct is there when danger is close. One notch above that, we want to multiply, ask any mid-teen what is on their mind when they look at the opposite sex. You have been there… what were you looking at? Another notch above that, when we mature some, we want to set a good example, for those younger then us… where does this ‘desire’ come from, after our teen (rowdy) years? Perhaps we do have a conscience. And, where does that lead us? Through life’s journey we go… and by the time we are well ‘aged’, what ‘desire’ is left? Perhaps, by then, one will realize that it should of been the only desire all along. All one has to do is, look to what would be important if one had only one day to live… where would one’s priority be for that one day?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

At the core, we want to live. Survival instinct is there when danger is close. One notch above that, we want to multiply, ask any mid-teen what is on their mind when they look at the opposite sex. You have been there… what were you looking at? Another notch above that, when we mature some, we want to set a good example, for those younger then us… where does this ‘desire’ come from, after our teen (rowdy) years? Perhaps we do have a conscience. And, where does that lead us? Through life’s journey we go… and by the time we are well ‘aged’, what ‘desire’ is left? Perhaps, by then, one will realize that it should of been the only desire all along. All one has to do is, look to what would be important if one had only one day to live… where would one’s priority be for that one day?

I think you are dancing around the core issue. Yes, our human nature gives rise to many desires. As we age we let go of some and embrace others, partly as our bodies change and partly as our minds grow.

But beyond what we can learn about desire from nature (i.e. science, personal experience, etc.), what can Catholicism teach us? (I simply refuse to believe that life is just a moral hazard best avoided by post-baptismal infanticide.)

But are the desires we discard merely distractions from the more important desires? Or do they lead us to the more important desires?

There are some relgions (e.g. Buddhism) that teach that enlightenment comes when we learn to let go of our desires but while Christianity has flirted with this idea (e.g. asceticism) it has never really embraced it. Christianity, taken as a whole, seems to teach that desire is good but needs to be harnessed and directed in the cause of good (e.g. sexual desire leads to happy families).

And with regard to the quote I set off against in the OP, to what extent do we follow our own desires as opposed to trying to discern God’s desire?

 

[stopping]

Oh gosh, where to even begin?

I guess I’m exploring the reality of the nameless hunger within us which goes unmet until we seek Him. And even then goes unmet until we become one with Him.

CS Lewis tackled the concept repeatedly in his essays and writings, as have the mystics, the mystigogues, and great minds such as Augustine.

It also connects into JPII’s theology of the body.

For example, I’ve been exploring eucharist as consumation of the wedding feast.

Another example is Lewis’ idea that in the act of desiring we are actually experiencing that which we desire.

Just some initial thoughts in hope of sparking comment…

 

[stopping]

Perhaps, by then, one will realize that it should of been the only desire all along.

I would submit that it actually -was- the desire all along.

 

[Michael_David]

But beyond what we can learn about desire from nature (i.e. science, personal experience, etc.), what can Catholicism teach us? (I simply refuse to believe that life is just a moral hazard best avoided by post-baptismal infanticide.)

But are the desires we discard merely distractions from the more important desires? Or do they lead us to the more important desires?

Discarded desires: perhaps that is getting caught-up in living life; what is important at the time… food, home, family. We are born both physical and spiritual, each has desires.

You ask, “what can Catholicism teach us?” Look at a Priest, Nun or Brother. They have “styled” their whole life around the Church… it becomes their ‘mission’. Just as the Apostles had a ‘mission’, and Christ had a ‘mission’… and St. Joseph had a ‘mission’, to be Christ’s dad, as Mary’s ‘mission’ was to be Christ’s mom.

So you see, in doing some ‘so-called’ physical desires, they overlap into the spiritual desires… ask Mother Teresa as she was feeding the hungry.

And what is a ‘mere distraction’ as compared to ‘important desires’? Could these become the same thing when seen through spiritual eye’s? Is depression leading into the Dark Night a distraction, or leading to a closer relationship with God? As it has been said, we are to know, love and serve God… this is our ‘mission’. How we do that is between God and us… not all ‘missions’ are the same, most are uniquely different, but all are God’s ‘mission’ for who we are and what He wants us to be.

As Catholic means ‘Universal’, it encompasses ‘all’. It is both East and West, North and South. Like St. Paul says, there are many parts, but one body. If my task is to be a little-finger, I’ll be the best little-finger I can be.

We do not leave this body behind and become only spirit until we leave this world… until then, the body does have desires (some are needs) that have to be addressed… and this is our ‘mission’ at that time and place. Love of our fellow-human beings becomes Charity as we serve their needs… just as the Priest serves those in the pew’s need when they come to Church. It becomes all serving the rest, so as, all serve.

So Stopping, it is that one realizes that ‘it was’ the desire all along, it just took the mind a while to catch-on.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think we all have desires, and the best thing we can do with ourselves is to recognize that others have desires too, and be compassionate toward them. To forgive others’ trespasses against us, as we would like to be forgiven.

Seek and you will find, but look for good true things. Ask and you shall receive, but ask for good true things.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think we all have desires, and the best thing we can do with ourselves is to recognize that others have desires too, and be compassionate toward them.

So you see, in doing some ‘so-called’ physical desires, they overlap into the spiritual desires… ask Mother Teresa as she was feeding the hungry.

See, I think this is key. Mother Teresa (nor Jesus) did not lecture the hungry on their attachment to worldly desire.

Quite the contrary, she used their worldly desire as a vehicle for expressing her love for them.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

We do not leave this body behind and become only spirit until we leave this world… until then, the body does have desires (some are needs) that have to be addressed…

Do you not believe in the ressurection of the body?

 

[fbl9]

And with regard to the quote I set off against in the OP, to what extent do we follow our own desires as opposed to trying to discern God’s desire?

i guess one could use a standard answer"where your heart is,there is your treasure"…also to what extent does one feel contrite when they don’t “measure up” to their conscience?..on the other side,we have those who’s conscience is not “formed” (in that of the christain’s conscience) whom feel no remorse for what is called sin by christian standards.

When does one arrive/posess,a conscience? Bubba do you think that one arrives at/ possesses a conscience with age only?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

i guess one could use a standard answer"where your heart is,there is your treasure"…also to what extent does one feel contrite when they don’t “measure up” to their conscience?..on the other side,we have those who’s conscience is not “formed” (in that of the christain’s conscience) whom feel no remorse for what is called sin by christian standards. When does one arrive/posess,a conscience? Bubba do you think that one arrives at/ possesses a conscience with age only?

These are essential and very relevant questions. Here are my thoughts:

If you knew that your desire was contrary to God’s then certainly I would say that your desire must give way. It’s easy to give examples of this, this is the desire to do evil.

This is true even if you are “following your heart”, “following your conscience.” Perhaps the best examples of this are those who think God is a failed god, that he does a poor job of running the universe. (I think a lot of people turn to atheism to avoid this conclusion.) I have heard some explanations of neo-satanism that sound a lot like this too. Satan is not evil, to them, he is a misunderstood savior.

I think a lot of Christians (including Catholics) try to have it both ways on “conscience” claiming that it is the voice of God unless it runs afoul of their ideals. It’s very arguable that Hitler was “following his conscience”, that he really devoted himself to bettering his world. It just happened, in his case, that he had a rather malformed conscience. Perhaps the ultimate evil, the definition of Satan, is the sincere belief in an evil cause.

I would argue that we begin forming a conscience, and thus experience feelings of guilt, very early and that we continue to develop it as long as we are experiencing the world. Naturally, all things being equal, older is wiser, but age is certainly not the best predictor of wisdom.

Which brings us back to the OP. My theory is that desire drives the formation of conscience, it drives internal change. Only when we are frustrated in our desires do we have the motivation to change ourselves and strive for perfection. Thus denial of desire is not the path to God. But neither is indulging base desires.

Life is essential to God’s plan and desire is essential to life.

 

[Michael_David]

Do you not believe in the ressurection of the body?

Yes… but that comes later. How much later if time is not relevant, I do not know… will have to wait and see.

 

[Michael_David]

I would argue that we begin forming a conscience, and thus experience feelings of guilt, very early and that we continue to develop it as long as we are experiencing the world. Naturally, all things being equal, older is wiser, but age is certainly not the best predictor of wisdom.

Which brings us back to the OP. My theory is that desire drives the formation of conscience, it drives internal change. Only when we are frustrated in our desires do we have the motivation to change ourselves and strive for perfection. Thus denial of desire is not the path to God. But neither is indulging base desires.

Life is essential to God’s plan and desire is essential to life.

But… is the conscience already there, forming the desires?

Even a 2 year old knows they did wrong when they bite their playmate, or take another’s toy. This seen by their actions after they have done it. It comes down to the very basic ‘desire’ to love and be loved. First by one’s parents, then one’s peer’s, and friend’s, then spouse, and family, then the boss and work-mate’s, and on it goes… hopefully finding God’s love in all this.

I agree on the frustration and motivation to change our ways as becoming a sub-desire needed to achieve our prime desire of being loved and loving. This can go both ways though… as your example of Hitler. So yes, conscience has to be active to correctly steer one’s desires, it’s nice to have the Church to bounce this off, or the Bible, if read with an open mind and entirely; even some trusted friends can steer one rightly. a good mix of friends will help one see through some confusion.

 

[walshy]

Desire is God given.It is when we want more than what we need that we come into conflict.Without food, sex, money and lifes other esenstials the human rase cannot servive.But when our selfish hearts demand more, and more we become sick bodily and spirtualy.This is when we run to Our Lady are spirtual mother to guide us back to Jesus.