Theology of the Body--as it relates to transgender

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Boy, do I know this. I lived for 15 years as an active gay male. I am now a celibate gay Catholic. My family and friends think I’ve “lost it”. Seems the world thinks celibacy is abnormal. They all say, “Oh Bob, there’s got to be a nice man out there for you.” And I tell them, “No, there’s not. It’s a fantasy. It doesn’t exist. That chapter of my life is closed.” I get very weird responses when I tell folks that I am celibate. I tell them “I’m a retired gay man.” (meaning retired from that lifestyle). They look at me like I’m from Mars. The crazy thing is 50 years ago people would have been patting me on the back congratulating me that I had escaped homosexuality…not so nowadays, just goes to show how our world is crumbling morally.
😦 😦
Well, I will certainly pat you on the back and congratulate you. I can only imagine the difficulty. I admire your strength and desire to do God’s will and follow His teachings.

Mary God continure to bless you and grant you strength and grace you need. I will offer a prayer of thanksgiving and encouragement for you. 🙂

:gopray:
 
It is hard to understand how someone is being compassionate when they’re telling a totally healthy individual who would never hurt or abuse another human being, has never had hallucinations or delusions that they have a mental disorder akin to a schizophrenic being driven to murder. Is it any wonder the popular perception of Christians is that they are homophobic or transphobic?

I am transgendered (male-to-female) and in my quest to understand this about myself I have seen the research, the history, known the pain. met the anti-Christians. For many individuals, their place in the sex/gender opposite to the one of their birth does indeed start with a feeling. But in all these are not idle fantasies, but overwhelming feelings of being out of place, of being a different gender than the one they seem to have. And these feelings last for years, come with enormous pain, and even despair of life itself.

It is a horror or horrors to be suicidal. Especially for me, with my great knowledge of science and knowing all the everyday poisons I could have easily taken my own life.

A question was asked, “Where were the transgendered people 50 years ago? One hundred years ago?” The answer is that they were there, suffering feelings and thoughts they could not understand. Many then, just as many now likely drifted into the world of pornography, of prostitution or excessive drinking and drug use. Many commited suicide without even being able to articulate their feelings and thoughts. Some perhaps became early drag performers. A few managed to live through the pain, live with their percieved sex and gender.

And there were the ones who were sent to mental instututes, where “cures” consisted of electroshock “therapy,” hallucionogenic drugs, and other methods more at home in Soviet prisons than hospitals.

I am in the process of joining the Roman Catholic Church. I have come to Truth–to Christ my Lord and my God–through my reason and by the grace given to me by God. I am a woman, but a woman with a birth defect caused, I believe, by Original Sin. So what if the accidents do not reflect the substance? No chemicals, no psychiatry can change me from a woman into a man. The Son has called me to His Church as the Father made me. If I am barred from receiving Holy Communion, if I am barred from all the Sacraments, nothing shall shake my faith.
 
If a child of 3 or 4 is depressed, he needs help. If a little boy wants to wear a dress to school, he needs help. He does not need to have this disordered interest indulged or normalized. There is obviously an issue with his sexual identification, which, at that young age, is still maleable and capable of being correctly formed. Little kids want to do all kinds of things that are not considered “normal”. Some kids like to run around naked. Some kids would stay in diapers forever if they were not coached onto the toilet. Our job, as parents, is to guide and form our children in the way that God intended, not to indulge their miguided inclinations.

Tell me - where were all these “transgendered” folks 50 years ago? If God is capable of making such a dreadful mistake as putting someone in the wrong gendered body, why didn’t we ever hear about such tortured souls years and years ago? And for the sake of argument, let’s say there were a few around back in 1910. How do you think they coped and survived without the wonderful medical and scientific advances that would have allowed them to mutilate themselves?
Well things advance. In 1910 I wouldn’t have been able to be operated on to remove a kidneystone and I’d likely die much younger than I would today. In 1910 we locked up autistic people. Yes society advances and yes some things improve.
 
Boy, do I know this. I lived for 15 years as an active gay male. I am now a celibate gay Catholic. My family and friends think I’ve “lost it”. Seems the world thinks celibacy is abnormal. They all say, “Oh Bob, there’s got to be a nice man out there for you.” And I tell them, “No, there’s not. It’s a fantasy. It doesn’t exist. That chapter of my life is closed.” I get very weird responses when I tell folks that I am celibate. I tell them “I’m a retired gay man.” (meaning retired from that lifestyle). They look at me like I’m from Mars. The crazy thing is 50 years ago people would have been patting me on the back congratulating me that I had escaped homosexuality…not so nowadays, just goes to show how our world is crumbling morally.
😦 😦
Congradulations on your early retirement! 👍
 
This is a complex and interesting thread. However, it seems to be too general and abstract. To remedy this, I suggest that you respond to the following link to The Atlantic Monthly. It reports on the experience of children who from little up understand themselves to be trapped in the wrong body. I am in the process of thinking this through and I hope posters to thread will this article and share their thoughts and reactions.
theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children
 
hi rpp;

although your points make sense to me…I don’t view, personally, transgender as a sexual deviance issue…I think that those who are experiencing sexual identity issues, have more of an issue of how they see themselves…how they want to live out their lives. It’s not driven by their sexual preferences. If that were the case…why do so many parents who have transgendered kids, say that their children were depressed as little kids…some 3 and 4…boys wanting to go to school wearing dresses. I mean, can a 4 or 5 year old be considered a sexual deviant? That’s the rub with this issue.

👍 Some people do not fit into the binary heterosexual distinctions: IMHO the existence of LGBT people is simply a fact, not deviant, not disordered, not something to campagn about: it’s not as such a matter of ethics. What one does sexually is very much a matter of ethics, OTOH: but that applies to everyone, not just to LGBT people. FWIW, being LGBT is not in itself an ethical matter, in any a sense that being heterosexual is not: AFAICS anyway. 🤷 Maybe human sexual identity is variable throughout life, on a sort of continuum 🤷

 
needs help. He does not need to have this disordered interest indulged or normalized. There is obviously an issue with his sexual identification, which, at that young age, is still maleable and capable of being correctly formed. Little kids want to do all kinds of things that are not considered “normal”. Some kids like to run around naked. Some kids would stay in

I have to politely disagree with the above. My parents stressed over my overly “tomboy” ways when I was a child. They tried to keep me in dresses and only indulge in “girlie” things and it did not work. They constantly reminded me how to behave “like a lady”. It did not work. I tried very hard though to remain living as female for many years until I was 37 years old. I finally got tired of it. I constantly felt “fake” and not truly myself. I strived to imitate, emulate, and be all that is female and I always felt like I was wearing costumes and just too unreal and disconnected. I became steeped in alcoholism to help me cope. I even thought having children and being a mother was the answer. Biology ruled that out which later turns out to be quite fortunate since I don’t have to bring any of my children into this situation. That’s much harder to deal with. I transitioned to male (though not surgically since I can’t afford it right now)…and I don’t drink any more and feel MUCH MORE AUTHENTIC and comfortable in my skin at long last. If I knew counseling would not work nor any other “conditioning” I would have done this a long time ago without fear of condemnation from my God. - TShawn
 
A person with XXY karyotype is still technically a male since Klinefelter syndrome is known only to happen to males. It is believed to occure when the cells of an egg or a sperm fail to divide evenly. Such a person CAN still develop normally, but many people with this condition have sparse body hair and fail to develop adult size genitalia and their voices fail to lower as much as a person’s without this condition. I knew someone with this condition and he inwardly identified as both male and female and expressed both traits in his dress and mannerisms. I don’t know and doubt if this occurs with all men with this syndrome. They can be treated with Testosterone hormone treatment which can help the body develop “normally” if it’s caught at around the age of puberty. I am sure the Church would only recognize this person as male as well. There are other conditions however, where it would be much more difficult to identify what sex the person is, and it is not always known which sex someone is when they are born. Gender in my honest opinion, is how one feels themselves to be, while sex is what one is anatomically. Just because one feels differently from how their body is made is no reason to condemn them though since I strongly believe the condition is not chosen. Same for homosexuality. Who in their right mind would choose social rejection and be ostracized? Sorry, maybe I’m getting off topic? - TShawn
 
A person with XXY karyotype is still technically a male since Klinefelter syndrome is known only to happen to males.
Not quite. Usually.
There is a 47xxy mother in Spain who has given birth to 47xxy daughters, for example. They have a defective SrY complex.

It’s more complicated than many medics and almost all theologians believe.

Transsexuality is an Intersex condition involving a somewhat cross-gendered lymbic nucleus in the brain, and possibly other neurological structures too. It depends. “Male brain in female body” or the reverse is a simplification, but close enough.

I’ll quote the Full Bench of the Australian Family Court after they reviewed the scientific evidence:austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437
At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are “psychologically” transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.
At paragraph [253]: ‘In other words (as I understand it) the brain of an individual may in some sense be male, for example, though the rest of the person’s body is female’.
At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely “psychological factors”, and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.
At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’.
Note that the evidence this finding was based on was determined after the Church issued its secret ruling on the subject, based on a flawed understanding of the medical facts.
 
Friends:

Let’s not forget that “transgenerism” includes not only those who wish surgery to achieve their dream, but those who retain their native parts and dress as the opposite sex to acheive sexual gratification. Another subset is the stereotypical “drag queen” gay male, who imitates females theatrically, but has neither a desire to change his sex nor achieve sexual gratification from wearing panties or nylons.

It might be worthwhile to consider the possible similarities and differences between the identity issues of these various subsets of transgender.

From my own reading and personal experience, I’ve concluded that we all simply have our own “crosses to bear.” Few if any gay or transgendered people will tell you that their lives have been devoid of personal struggle in regard to issues related to their lifestyle.

If a person is a drug addict, and it is destroying him, they need to overcome their addiction to achieve self-preservation. Timothy Leary, on the other hand, urged people to “tune in, turn on and drop out.” Similarities may be found, and are perhaps legitimate, within the GLTG movement. On the one hand, the radicals seek to “legitimize” and elevate a behavior as “healthy and normal” while others suffer a lifetime of self-doubt and confusion, simply attempting to cope with who they are. Where some view suicide as the logical expression of a tortured soul, the radicals view it as a tragedy to be blamed on an unforgiving and uninformed society.

I tend to think that two parties (and two only) know where the epicenter and consequences of these struggles exist: God and the person who wrestles with them.
 
Anyone catch Father Thomas Loya this week on Relevant Radio? He was speaking about Theology of the Body…as he typically does…and a caller asked the question…‘if someone is transgendered, and science shows that these people are born thinking they belong as a another gender, then what does God think of this?’

So…he replied that ‘God doesn’t make mistakes. Just because you think you should be something else, doesn’t mean you should be. If you are born with male parts, then you are a male.’ (and he went on, but that’s the gist)
This is so contemtuous of the people that go through this it is not funny. Honestly if God makes no mistakes, then why are people born with both sets of genitals.

I’d love to see how he explains the hemaphrodite.
 
Tell me - where were all these “transgendered” folks 50 years ago?
They were in the same place those with tourettes syndrome were placed. In the funny farm.

Or, if they could manage to spend their lives in mysery, they hid it.
They didn’t cope. That’s the reason we try and help those struggling now, because we’ve finally decided to care about them, instead of denying their problem is real.
Well…some of us at least.
 
Transgenderism is a mental disorder. No question about it.
Of course there are questions about it. Making a claim it is a mental disorder, does not explain it’s origins. It does not explain why a 2yr old boy, would put a pair of scissors to his willy and attempt to cut it off, while saying it should not be there.

If it is a “mental” disorder then can you really excuse God from the equation when it comes to a 2 year old child? Will you blame the parents?

Or will the scientists who don’t make assumptions but attempt to discern facts do the hard work for you?

The real problem here, is the belief that God does not make mistakes. A belief that everything that happens that is bad, is some fault of our own or something a parent is doing wrong, or some kind of faulty choice of the individual.

These people are living is the kind of accute emotional pain most of us cannot understand. I have a deep respect for the parents of such a child, that actually respect their child enough to listen to them, and not those that want to judge them.
 
A question was asked, “Where were the transgendered people 50 years ago? One hundred years ago?” The answer is that they were there, suffering feelings and thoughts they could not understand. Many then, just as many now likely drifted into the world of pornography, of prostitution or excessive drinking and drug use. Many commited suicide without even being able to articulate their feelings and thoughts. Some perhaps became early drag performers. A few managed to live through the pain, live with their percieved sex and gender.

And there were the ones who were sent to mental instututes, where “cures” consisted of electroshock “therapy,” hallucionogenic drugs, and other methods more at home in Soviet prisons than hospitals.
50 Years ago…

1952
Christine Jorgensen is “outed” in the American press. She begins a life long effort to educate the public about transsexual people.

75 Years ago…

1931
“Genital Reassignment of Two Male Transvestites”, is published by Felix Abraham, M.D.

1932
Man Into Woman, the story of Lili Elbe’s life, MTF transition, and Sex Reassignment Surgery is published.

100 Years ago…

1920
Jonathan Gilbert publishes “Homosexuality and Its Treatment” the story of “H”, Dr. Alan Hart’s 1917 FTM transition

150 Years ago,

1861
Franklin Thompson, born Sarah Emma Edmonds, fought for the Union Army in the Civil War. During the war, Franklin served as a spy, nurse, dispatch carrier and later was the only woman mustered into the Grand Army of the Republic.

And so on and so on.
 
what about people wiht XXY chromosomes ?
The real problem here, is the belief that God does not make mistakes. A belief that everything that happens that is bad, is some fault of our own or something a parent is doing wrong, or some kind of faulty choice of the individual.
science 2 relgion 0
They didn’t cope. That’s the reason we try and help those struggling now, because we’ve finally decided to care about them, instead of denying their problem is real.
and the steriotype of a compassion-less institution is reinforced yet again.
 
science 2 religion 0.
I can’t agree - the idea that everything that happens that is bad, is some fault of our own or something a parent is doing wrong, or some kind of faulty choice of the individual. is heretical, and directly contradicts John 9:1-12.

So many people “know” what Scripture says - what it has to say to bolster their Pharisaic beliefs - that they never actually bother reading it.
 
Anyone catch Father Thomas Loya this week on Relevant Radio? He was speaking about Theology of the Body…as he typically does…and a caller asked the question…‘if someone is transgendered, and science shows that these people are born thinking they belong as a another gender, then what does God think of this?’

So…he replied that ‘God doesn’t make mistakes. Just because you think you should be something else, doesn’t mean you should be. If you are born with male parts, then you are a male.’ (and he went on, but that’s the gist)

I was surprised that Father Loya didn’t make any exceptions? Maybe someone is chemically imbalanced and therefore they are born thinking he/she should be the of the opposite sex?:confused:

Curious as to your thoughts.
(Oops, this post refers to several different people as “you”. Please read charitably. 🙂 )

Don’t be hard on Fr. Loya, he probably isn’t even aware that intersex people exist. It used to be the case, and many times still is, that if a child is born who isn’t clearly male or female, the doctors will cut off whichever parts seem easiest to make the child look more male or female. When families discover that their child is the opposite gender from what they initially thought, they often move in order to spare the child taunting at school.

Theology of the Body is, frankly, an incoherent novelty in Church teaching. Perhaps over the coming decades theologians will improve and correct its many flaws and reconcile it with traditional Catholic teaching, or maybe it’ll just get discarded like so many other pet theories. TotB as it exists now would seem (by my interpretation) to say transgenderism is deeply sinful, because it operates under the assumption that human sex should be perfectly binary. That isn’t the case, of course. We all know what characteristics typify a male and what characteristics typify a female, but there are many people in between.

-There are people who have the physical characteristics of both sexes, either equally or in some proportion
-There are people who have the physical characteristics of neither sex.
-There are people who have genetics different from the standard XX and XY, such as X0, XXX, XXY, and XYY.
-There are people who are physically male but genetically female.
-There are people who are physically female but genetically male.

Once you include psychology and social roles and such, the boundary line gets even fuzzier. My father is flighty, emotional, a social butterfly, and loves to shop. My mother is stoic, practical, loves physical labor, and hates to enter a store. I haven’t done the research but I would assume that transgender people are extreme cases of that kind. None of this goes to deny that men and women are distinct. They are. It’s simply also true that many people are not precisely one or the other.

In conclusion, don’t worry about Theology of the Body at this stage in history. If it’s helpful to you, then fine. It’s far from a perfect explanation of its topic, though.

What you may be certain of is that God created us, and he did a good job. He created us “male and female”, not “either male or female”. Some people may tell you that intersexuality and transgenderism are defects introduced with Original Sin, however, since God to our knowledge hasn’t ever miraculously cured someone of intersexuality or transgenderism, you are entitled to believe (and SHOULD believe, pending that miracle) that your body is an equally good part of God’s good creation.
 
What you may be certain of is that God created us, and he did a good job. He created us “male and female”, not “either male or female”. Some people may tell you that intersexuality and transgenderism are defects introduced with Original Sin, however, since God to our knowledge hasn’t ever miraculously cured someone of intersexuality or transgenderism, you are entitled to believe (and SHOULD believe, pending that miracle) that your body is an equally good part of God’s good creation.
Cripes, I wish my parents thought that way… I’ve tried to explain it within a Catholic point of view (with… mixed results… at best) but that’s a beautiful way of putting things 🙂
 
since God to our knowledge hasn’t ever miraculously cured someone of intersexuality or transgenderism,
There is some evidence to show that He may have, but it’s inconclusive, and no-one makes the claim that He has.

The fact that a handful of people who have suffered Transsexuality for decades suddenly find their biology changing without medical intervention, and that such changes cannot always be explained by current medical science, does not mean they are Miracles, merely miraculous. The changes are incomplete, and our lack of knowledge in this area so vast as to leave plenty of scope for us to say that although it’s currently inexplicable, that a natural explanation almost certainly exists. As it does for 99% of such “natural sex changes”.

The most spectacular well-documented change was certainly not the result of prayers for intercession, as the recipient isn’t even a believer. But she has found her lack of faith severely shaken by the experience. She just wonders why her, and why not the many others who deserved it far more than she did,
 
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