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Phillip_Rolfes
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The website that I read it from was dedicated to translating his Commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard (commenting on “The Sentences” was basically the scholastic equivalent to a doctor dissertation). franciscan-archive.org/bonaventura/opera/bon01209.html. If you scroll down to the “Conclusion: I Respond…” section, you’ll see Bonaventure’s thoughts on “the Greeks,” at least in regards their thinking on the filioque vs. the Latin understanding. Whether or not he thoroughly understood the Greek understanding of the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit is a different debate.
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theidler
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Ouch! St. Bonaventure is about as kind to the East as St. Theophan is to the West. If only both sides could just let it go…it’s as tiring as watching a family feud. I get that enough every Christmas.
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hazcompat
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It is a family feud.Ouch! St. Bonaventure is about as kind to the East as St. Theophan is to the West. If only both sides could just let it go…it’s as tiring as watching a family feud. I get that enough every Christmas.
peace
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Phillip_Rolfes
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Amen. Perhaps that’s why we’re all so tired of it. It’s also why it causes such a great scandal to the rest of the world. If we can’t witness to Christ among one another, how can we witness to the rest of the world? If we can’t be Christ-like to one another, how can we bring Christ to the rest of the world?
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AnthonyJ
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I continually pray we may all be one soon!
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MrPip
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MrPip
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Okay. I’m not interested in a p___ing contest about it.
Did someone post earlier that it’s in “The Path to Salvation”? If so, if I can find my copy under the mountain of books here, and someone can reference the pages, I’d be happy to read it. I doubt very much that it will upset me. I can certainly disagree with something without getting “upset” about it. Seems you know me about as well as you think I know you
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Mickey
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Did he not reject the idea of the IC.
Yes. I was just starting to study a bit of his writings when my journey Eastward began. I was fascinated by the idea of “the dark night of the soul.”
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Mickey
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One of the expressions [St Silouan the Athonite] frequently used was “we must go down before we go up.” That is, we cannot expect to ascend to the heights of glory with Christ unless we are willing first to adopt His voluntary humility. What Christ did, He did sinlessly out of pure love for mankind. In our case, our willingness to humble ourselves is the only appropriate stance before God in view of our sin.
In this vein, he emphasized the life-giving potential of the word given by Christ to St. Silouan: “Keep your mind in hell and despair not.” This paradoxical formulation at once teaches us to live with the awareness of the damnable nature of our sin and to hold fast to the saving power of Christ. A person who “keeps his mind in hell” is ever aware that only one fate is appropriate for his deeds, eternal damnation. This consideration sears humility into his soul, as he finds himself utterly unable to lift his eyes toward the face of God. Yet this very movement of “going down” is motivated by grace, and that same grace enables one to fend off temptations to despondency. One’s wretchedness before God is excruciatingly and unremittingly apparent, and yet in that very moment joy is born into the soul as the supreme love of God is revealed as the vanquisher of sin, rescuing him from the abyss of despair.
orthodoxtapes.org/catalog/st_silouan.html
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Mickey
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I think that it hurts the Eastern Catholics the most…at least, that was my experience. As a Latin Catholic, I was ignorant to Eastern Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism…it was never discussed or taught. As an Eastern Catholic, the Latin Catholics were fond of telling me that I was “not really Catholic”…and at the same time, I yearned for communion with my Orthodox brethren…I knew that Holy Orthodoxy was my patrimony…and it hurt me deepy that we were separated. As an Orthodox, I feel that I have concluded my journey to the East…but also aware that a new journey of learning and prayer continues (I am discerning the Diaconate).
I am still grieved by the separation…but it is not as profound as when I was Byzantine Catholic.
Again…that is only my experience.
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Mickey
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Profanity is not diminished by excluding letters.
No.
No. I do not know you at all.
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MrPip
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St. Silouan is one of my favorite “modern” saints! Thanks for posting that!
He’s not one who I’ve seen referred to much on internet boards.
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Mickey
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Me too!
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Phillip_Rolfes
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It was either Aquinas or Bonaventure who rejected the idea of the IC. I believe it was Aquinas, but I’m open to correction. The Franciscans in general have a history of defending the IC prior to its being made dogma. At the time of Aquinas and Bonaventure it hadn’t yet been dogmatized, so it was hotly debated. In fact, the escalating debate in the West is what led to the dogmatization of the IC. Since it was never really an issue in the East, I think it’s pretty much a moot point for Eastern Catholics. After all, we do profess Mary to be “All holy, all pure, most highly blessed, and glorious lady…” the “Virgin pure and immaculate…”Did he not reject the idea of the IC.
Yes. I was just starting to study a bit of his writings when my journey Eastward began. I was fascinated by the idea of “the dark night of the soul.”
St. John of the Cross is simply amazing. That’s pretty much all I have to say about that.
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Mickey
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This reminds me of another superb book!
Saint Silouan the Athonite
Archimandrite Sophrony Sakharov
svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=250
Saint Silouan the Athonite
Archimandrite Sophrony Sakharov
svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=250
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Phillip_Rolfes
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I agree with you here about the separation hurting Eastern Catholics more than anyone else. We are keenly aware of our patrimony within Orthodoxy, but at the same time our love for communion with Rome keeps us within Catholicism. In my experience most Latin Catholics and Eastern/Byzantine Orthodox are content to ignore each other or remain blissfully ignorant of each other, except perhaps throwing the occasional sideways glance at “those schismatics over there.”
In reality the separation should grieve all of us most deeply. To the extent that we do not work for the restoration of communion, I would ask if we will be held responsible for perpetuating the rift in Christ’s Body. No matter where my own spiritual journey takes me, such a thought will always haunt me.
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Mickey
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Yes. I am familiar with comments from Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux. But I have also come across this comment.
“If the Blessed Virgin was free from original sin, she was also exempt from the necessity of dying; therefore, either her death was an injustice or she died for the salvation of the human race. But the former supposition is blasphemous, implying that God is not just; and the latter, too, is a blasphemy against Christ for it implies that His Redemption is insufficient. Both are therefore erroneous and impossible. Therefore Our Blessed Lady was subject to original sin.”
Bonaventure
However, it is not my intention to turn this into another thread on the IC.
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MrPip
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You’re right, it’s not. Please forgive me if I’ve offended you or anyone else. Let me reword it: I’m not interested in arguing with you about it.Profanity is not diminished by excluding letters.
Yup. You don’t know me, and I don’t know you. We can both, however, discern something of what the other thinks and believes by what we write. That is all I meant. How it got twisted and turned into this inane to and fro, is beyond me. Well, on the other hand, I guess if I had written that initially instead of “I understand where your sympathies lie”, perhaps it wouldn’t have. My bad
. I’'ll endeavor to be more precise in the future.
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Mickey
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There are many variables. Communion cannot be restored through compromise…it must be genuine…and if it is not, I believe God will send another St Mark of Ephesus. I do not concern myself much with ecumenism. God will heal the rift in His time. I feel the best I can do is attempt to love my Christian brothers and sisters as if they were Christ Himself (I often fail)…and to pray, pray, pray.
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