Theories of atonement or the redemption without belief in Original Sin

[catholic1seeks]

Hey, all.

I was curious. I was speaking with my cousin who is a pastor. She does not believe in Original Sin or the Fall, but she does believe in free will and sin. While I’m not sure what her exact view on the redemption is, I imagine that there are Christian theologies that respect Christ’a redeeming sacrifice while not believing in a fall of man or original sin.

What views of this are there?
I can imagine that Christ came to save us from our own sins, while not considering the sin of Adam. That seems easy enough to imagine, though it may be at odds with biblical data (Paul’s “all became sinners in Adam”)

 

[simpleas]

Good question, there are many threads hereon CAF that touch on this thought, so it will be very interesting to discuss.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Look up theories of atonement. Moral Examplem, does not require Origina Sin.

 

[3DOCTORS]

pulls up chair, sits

I’ll be interested in what people find out, as I’ve been working on and off for several years now on a science fiction novel about aliens who do not have Original Sin - until after a “time of testing” which takes place when, coincidentally, they and humankind meet. It’s been hard to come up with how they will then be saved. I’m going to use the Catholic model but there are still questions, such as will they need to join the Church and receive the Sacraments, things like that. For the purposes of fiction, maybe some of these other theologies might play into it - not contradicting the Catholic belief but maybe God has a slightly different avenue for the aliens since they didn’t get to meet Christ or Christians in the way we have, etc.

 

[grannymh]

pulls up chair, sits

I’ll be interested in what people find out, as I’ve been working on and off for several years now on a science fiction novel about aliens who do not have Original Sin - until after a “time of testing” which takes place when, coincidentally, they and humankind meet. It’s been hard to come up with how they will then be saved. I’m going to use the Catholic model but there are still questions, such as will they need to join the Church and receive the Sacraments, things like that. For the purposes of fiction, maybe some of these other theologies might play into it - not contradicting the Catholic belief but maybe God has a slightly different avenue for the aliens since they didn’t get to meet Christ or Christians in the way we have, etc.

In my humble opinion, one should start with what humankind and the friendly aliens are to be saved from.

Maybe they will be saved from starvation since the Garden of Eden no longer has a humankind gardener who is an expert in the science of agriculture. Maybe the aliens have something that Adam could use to travel in the wide wonderful world outside the Garden looking for a mega grocery store. Then, everyone could feast on peanut butter and jelly. But then, Adam finds holes in the plan and the aliens save him because they have found a magic church. However, the owner of the church is locked out and therefore he needs the key of atonement for Adam’s stupid choice, which, by the way, affected other people who then lost their job.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

What views of this are there?
I can imagine that Christ came to save us from our own sins, while not considering the sin of Adam. That seems easy enough to imagine, though it may be at odds with biblical data (Paul’s “all became sinners in Adam”)

Even if that is true, it makes Jesus coming rather presumptuous. It assumed that man (and woman) would commit sin and therefore Jesus came in anticipation of it, and not to redeem something that was already fallen/committed.

It also ignored the promise of God in Genesis that the woman would birth an offspring to trample on the head of the serpent after the fall.

 

[cfauster]

Hey, all.

I was curious. I was speaking with my cousin who is a pastor. She does not believe in Original Sin or the Fall, but she does believe in free will and sin. While I’m not sure what her exact view on the redemption is, I imagine that there are Christian theologies that respect Christ’a redeeming sacrifice while not believing in a fall of man or original sin.

What views of this are there?
I can imagine that Christ came to save us from our own sins, while not considering the sin of Adam. That seems easy enough to imagine, though it may be at odds with biblical data (Paul’s “all became sinners in Adam”)

George Murphy is a Lutheran theologian who might be worth reading in regards to your question.

Murphy wrote, in an informal on-line discussion a brief summary of his formal writings about original sin: “I don’t think that the 1st humans were in full communion with God. Before God had revealed anything of himself & his will they were in a relation to God proper for other animals. After revelation they were where God wanted them to start, but God intended for them to develop in such a way as to bring them into full communion. But they took the “wrong road” & started moving farther from God.”

For links to, and discussion of, Murphy’s idea, see this blog.

 

[simpleas]

pulls up chair, sits

I’ll be interested in what people find out, as I’ve been working on and off for several years now on a science fiction novel about aliens who do not have Original Sin - until after a “time of testing” which takes place when, coincidentally, they and humankind meet. It’s been hard to come up with how they will then be saved. I’m going to use the Catholic model but there are still questions, such as will they need to join the Church and receive the Sacraments, things like that. For the purposes of fiction, maybe some of these other theologies might play into it - not contradicting the Catholic belief but maybe God has a slightly different avenue for the aliens since they didn’t get to meet Christ or Christians in the way we have, etc.

I’m not sure how aliens would fall, it could not be anything like the Genesis story. We are flesh and bone, made from the earth, but have been given a spirit. The aliens could be made up of any material, and then they would need ‘the breath of God’ within them to be made in his image.
If the aliens are from another realm then they would have their own rules from God I should think.
This makes me think of the good and bad angels, that angels should never intervene with humanity.

Just some alien thoughts…

 

[Janderich]

Hey, all.

I was curious. I was speaking with my cousin who is a pastor. She does not believe in Original Sin or the Fall, but she does believe in free will and sin. While I’m not sure what her exact view on the redemption is, I imagine that there are Christian theologies that respect Christ’a redeeming sacrifice while not believing in a fall of man or original sin.

What views of this are there?
I can imagine that Christ came to save us from our own sins, while not considering the sin of Adam. That seems easy enough to imagine, though it may be at odds with biblical data (Paul’s “all became sinners in Adam”)

Even if that is true, it makes Jesus coming rather presumptuous. It assumed that man (and woman) would commit sin and therefore Jesus came in anticipation of it, and not to redeem something that was already fallen/committed.

It also ignored the promise of God in Genesis that the woman would birth an offspring to trample on the head of the serpent after the fall.

As LDS we would say that Adam’s sin effected the environment in which we were placed but did not place guilt upon us. As our second Article of Faith states, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression” (Joseph Smith).

We also do not believe that mortal birth was our beginning. Before we came to earth we lived for eons and eons of time as spirits. We learned and progressed but still had certain weaknesses. In order to overcome our own weaknesses we had to enter this fallen realm to further advance. God knowing that we would inevitably sin, because of our inherent weaknesses, provided a Savior who would first; lift us out of this fallen realm after we had been tested, and second; lift us up to a higher state according to the weaknesses we had overcome while here.