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thephilosopher6
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I’m not saying that. God can save those outside of baptism, of course. But baptism is necessary for salvation. Denying its necessity is a heresy.
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thephilosopher6
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That is basically what I have been saying this entire time. And I adhere to the Christus Victor not any of the ransom theory’s.
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grannymh
Guest
I hold to the theory of obedience as restoring the shattered original relationship between humanity and divinity. Christ’s atonement by any name has to be first based on Adam and his role in Catholic theology.
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Michael_Mayo
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How do you not see your contradiction? Perhaps it is because Baptism as a sacrament is an outward sign of in inward grace. One can have the inward grace through God’s graciousness and lack the outward sign. I don’t know how else you reconcile your two statements.
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Michael_Mayo
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Ok. Can I ask a question without having it viewed as a challenge or denial. Can I ask a question to further the discussion with out “heresy” thrown at me? Here it is: How does Adam’s disobedience and Christ’s obedience so long ago affect us here and now in our own struggles with sin, temptation and the death of our loved ones?
At the risk of Philosopher’s ostracization I will share my view because that is what I thought discussion was all about. Isn’t that how we unpack the richness and wisdom of our faith? It has to be more than repeating memorized verses and phrases. And can we read it looking for the best intentions rather than trying to be orthodoxy police?
Adam knowingly and willingly disobeyed God’s instruction. In doing so he parted company, alienated himself, broke union with God and God’s will. We do that also at times and as we do it further dims our conscience, de-forms it, if you will. Sin and darkness become habit. IN A SENSE we could say we are held captive by that sin and darkness. Eventually we don’t even realize it.
Jesus comes along with a clear vision of his mission and God’s will. With the light of his life and teaching he shows us our path to reunion with God. But it is not passive on our part. We must accept and follow. We must welcome a personal relationship with Jesus and follow his moral example. Jesus realized his message and his mission would not be accepted by the powers that be because of the degree of darkness to which they had fallen. But rather than retiring and laying low he was obedient to his mission, to all he had heard from the Father. He knew it would lead to execution. Not because God desired it but because it was an inevitable consequence of human sin and darkness trying to prevail over light and grace. Jesus was obedient even to death. And he tells us to pick up our own crosses and follow his moral example regardless of the consequences. “Through his stripes we are healed” because we willingly identify with him who transcended earthly suffering and join our sufferings to his as offerings. If we accept death in love just as he did, he is with us. So we are not passive. We must respond to the call of Jesus. But God meets us more than half way with grace. If we are one with Jesus, we also have been crucified. St Paul says that. We are saved, redeemed, atoned for.
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grannymh
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The theory of Christ’s obedience includes His power to remove or erase the human state deprived of Adam’s original State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace. Christ’s obedience, that is dying bloody on His chosen cross, is meant for all humans. In addition, the Catholic Church teaches that all humans have the same destiny which is the Beatific Vision. Therefore, one should not deny the Holy Spirit’s power to offer “to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God , of the Paschal mystery.” In addition to reading CCC 1260, I also suggest reading the last sentence in CCC 1257
Information source. The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
paragraphs 356, 404, 405, 1257, 1260, 1730.
May I gently point out that there is no human contradiction to Christ Who, by His obedience, restored, that is repaired, humanity’s shattered original relationship with God the Creator.
Regarding the idea that all the theories have some truth but none completely capture the mystery. In my humble opinion, that sounds like a stealth attack.
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Michael_Mayo
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I think all the theories have some truth but none completely capture the mystery.
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grannymh
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The computer just ate my original response.
I think your question “How does Adam’s disobedience and Christ’s obedience so long ago affect us here and now in our own struggles with sin, temptation and the death of our loved ones?” is major.
The following is not criticism or a hint at heresy which I consider a four-letter word. The “orthodoxy police” does not mess with a granny.
I am speaking about some stuff I have read, but not believed.
This approach, “Adam knowingly and willingly disobeyed God’s instruction. In doing so he parted company, alienated himself, broke union with God and God’s will.” reminds me of attempts to find truths in the first three chapters of Genesis while denying the existence of Adam. It also reminds me of allegories which ignore the difference between a Divine Creator and a human creature.
I see the both of us as sincerely looking for truth. Sometimes, we have to dissect the correct, yet deficient, truths by digging below the surface. Yes, that is how we unpack the richness and wisdom of our faith. It has to be more than repeating memorized verses and phrases.
My computer is still hungry …
I will fix that but I have run out of time. My apology for that.
In closing, when we talk about the truth that Adam alienated himself, we need to address this additional truth. The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. from CCC 404. This is why tampering with the reality of Adam can be dangerous to our Catholic Faith. This is why the theory of obedience requires all kinds of thoughts. May I ask you for your thoughts while I am kicking my computer.
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Michael_Mayo
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Don’t you hate it. Spend time thinking, writin ,maybe even researching and linking and then somehow it is just gone.
I don’t think there is a an “Obedience Theory” per se but obedience is at the heart of it all. I am on my pad so I can’t cut and paste but we see in 1 Samuel 15:22 and Hosea 6:6 the preference of obedience even more than sacrifice though obedience often involves sacrifice. But again when we disobey once it gets easier and then our ears become even more deaf to instruction. As children born of sinful parents we are raised in darkness and it perpetuates getting deeper and deeper. We become more captive of darkness and sin, truly lost. We assert out individuality and independence from God even to the point of opposition. Jesus showed us what obedience is at a great cost but his obedience alone is not enough to save us. We must obey and follow or else we adopt the Protestant “Faith Alone” view that seem to me almost magical. Just my thoughts.
I don’t think there is a an “Obedience Theory” per se but obedience is at the heart of it all. I am on my pad so I can’t cut and paste but we see in 1 Samuel 15:22 and Hosea 6:6 the preference of obedience even more than sacrifice though obedience often involves sacrifice. But again when we disobey once it gets easier and then our ears become even more deaf to instruction. As children born of sinful parents we are raised in darkness and it perpetuates getting deeper and deeper. We become more captive of darkness and sin, truly lost. We assert out individuality and independence from God even to the point of opposition. Jesus showed us what obedience is at a great cost but his obedience alone is not enough to save us. We must obey and follow or else we adopt the Protestant “Faith Alone” view that seem to me almost magical. Just my thoughts.
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Michael_Mayo
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In the Catechism we read:
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
What do you interpret as “figurative language”?
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thephilosopher6
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I see no contradiction at all. Denying the necesitty of baptism is heresy. Denying the necesitty of any sacrament is heresy as defined by the council of Trent.
Canon 4.If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.
And again from the CCC
*The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257). *
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Michael_Mayo
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thephilosopher6
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It is against the faith to deny the existence of Adam and Eve
Pope Pius XII stated: *“When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37). *
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thephilosopher6
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Unless you understand that from a Protestant point of view, there is no contradiction. Are you also implying that you don’t accept the necessity of the sacraments?
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Michael_Mayo
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Please explain to me how it is not contradiction.
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Michael_Mayo
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So then what does the catechism mean by “figurative language”?
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Michael_Mayo
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Are you going to call the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity a heretic also?
Though it “is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery,” Jews can participate in salvation without confessing Christ explicitly, a Vatican committee said in a document released on Thursday.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-takes-on-tense-question-of-salvation-for-the-jewish-people-65742/
Though it “is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery,” Jews can participate in salvation without confessing Christ explicitly, a Vatican committee said in a document released on Thursday.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-takes-on-tense-question-of-salvation-for-the-jewish-people-65742/
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thephilosopher6
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Genesis doesn’t have to be taken entirely literally. I’m sure there was no real talking snake or tree of knowledge of good and evil, but there was a real Adam and Eve who all humans today are descendants of. If there wasnt, then there would be no original sin.
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Michael_Mayo
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Do you reject Vatican II?
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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thephilosopher6
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No, because anyone could be saved. But the Catholic Church has the ultimate chance of salvation. extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
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