Theory vs Law (vs Hypothesis)?

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I entered this thread with some trepidation. Optimism trumps experience. Every time I enter one of these threads someone who is comprehensively ignorant in the field of philosophy of science already has all the answers.

Basically, your claims either don’t show an understanding of the issues or are wrong, including your sophomoric denigration of the word intuitively. I chose it for a reason that anyone versed in the history of philosophy of science would recognize at once.

Every once in a while I get into a good discussion with people who have an appreciation for the field or want to explore it. I don’t have time for people who have all the answers.
I for one am very much interested in your answers. You’ve said that faslifiablility is not a requirenment for a valid hypothesis in science. Do you see any requirements for a valid hypothesis?

Maybe you can give me some of the history. I have heard that there were battles between Kuhn and Popper over something like this issue.

Validation? Falsification? I think Kuhn argued “none of he above.” Kuhn saw no “scientific method” looking at the history of science. I recently read his “Structure of Scientific Revolutions” and found it to be consistent with pragmatism. Within the current scientific paradigm could we still say that there is a method?

Best,
Leela
 
You mean an accident of evolution produced in man the ability to distinguish between intelligent design and the absence of intelligent design? An accident of nature produced a creature capable of intuiting or intelligently designing an equation like E=mc² ? An accident of nature produced in man the the ability to imagine a Creator who designed everything? An atheist must think these accidents of nature are misfiring all over the place. 👍
Full house : the spread of excellence from Plato to Darwin

From Dawkins’ review:
He looks at the actual course of evolution and argues that such apparent progress as can in general be detected is artefactual (like the baseball statistic). Cope’s rule of increased body size, for example, follows from a simple ‘drunkard’s walk’ model. The distribution of possible sizes is confined by a left wall, a minimal size. A random walk from a beginning near the left wall has nowhere to go but up the size distribution. The mean size has pretty well got to increase, and it doesn’t imply a driven evolutionary trend towards larger size.
… and yes, Dawkins vs. Gould provides us with hours of entertainment…
 
Within the current scientific paradigm could we still say that there is a method?

Many methodologies. Science has not set down any single methodolgy etched in stone.

Roger Bacon and later Francis Bacon were most helpful in setting down methodologies that were novel and produced many breakthrough.

You will notice that in many colleges the science and mathematics disciplines are lumped together. This is very logical, because much science has been developed in modern times through mathematical models, as Plato long ago advised, though Plato was not really all that interested in the sciences.

The science that emerged from Einstein and later Heisenberg and Planck was heavily influenced at first by mathematics, rather than laboratory experiments. Lab experiments in many cases have followed the mathematical pioneers, such as Gregor Mendel who became very adept at counting dominant and recessive traits of the peas in his garden (the first step toward a science of genetics).

The philosophy of science deal with the principles of methodology, and a close study of those methodologies shows that scientific principles can be uncovered in the most unexpected places and ways. Some scientific inquiries cannot be solved at all because there is no adequate methodology. You are certainly aware in this forum that this has proven to be the case with abiogensis. If by chance, it is virtually impossible and no experiment will ever prove such a thing. Yet if by intelligent design, we again cannot go to the lab and confirm our strongest instinct that something Intelligent created and governs the universe.
 
I for one am very much interested in your answers. You’ve said that faslifiablility is not a requirenment for a valid hypothesis in science. Do you see any requirements for a valid hypothesis?

Maybe you can give me some of the history. I have heard that there were battles between Kuhn and Popper over something like this issue.
Let me provide some brief exposition (cursory really). Some philosophers of science, Popper in particular were looking for a sort of litmus test - a set of neat and tidy rules to filter what is science from what is not. In part Popper was motivated by a desire to expose certain fields of study such as psychoanalysis and certain Marxist claims as pseudoscience. It was also motivated by a sense that the Copenhagen Interpretation and Instrumentalism had departed the purview of science and invaded the turf of philosophy. It didn’t help that on some levels Bohr and Heisenberg probably did depart science and make what can only be considered philosophical statements. Heisenberg for example stated that the moon does not exist if no one is looking at it. (Copenhagen Interpretation and Instrumentalism are big topics in and of themselves, but can sloppily be summarized: Reality is a meaningless concept for science; just get the math to work out right.)

So Popper, influenced by the Hegelian school, was the among the first and most prominent philosophers of science to attempt a litmus test for science. Falsifiability was a central feature of the boundaries he attempted to set. It didn’t take long before scientists and other philosophers objected. Scientists do routinely form hypotheses that are not falsifiable, such as the previous example of the super heavy island. Philosophers of science, Popper foremost soon added the role of confirmation. Although we cannot falsify the super heavy island hypothesis, we can confirm it by producing one of the predicted atoms. This too led to problems. Consider the hypothesis, “all chemicals have a temperature and pressure range in which they are liquid.” How can this be falsified? Suppose we could not make one stubborn chemical into a liquid. We still have not falsified the hypothesis because there are infinite combination of temperature and pressure ranges. How can the hypothesis be confirmed? Can we ever be sure we have discovered and tested every chemical (this is the classic problem of induction elucidated so well by Hume et al)? Yet the hypothesis not only seems to be well within the realm of science, it seems to be correct.

So eventually the role of conditionality and self-correction came into play. What separates science from pseudoscience and religion, said some philosophers, is that science considers all of its constructs conditional, subject to correction and improvement. There are many problems here, but two are most glaring. First, who’s to say for sure a correction is really an improvement? We were wrong the first time, maybe we’re just as wrong with the correction. Second, pseudoscience and religion can and do self-correct. Popper argued that it was a different type of correction, but for all intents and purposes admitted that it was a subjective evaluation.

I wish I could find the quote, but eventually Popper poetically summed up his frustration trying to find a neat and tidy answer to what is scientific. He basically claimed that science needs its magic too, but that it is fundamentally different from the magic of pseudoscience or religion.
Validation? Falsification? I think Kuhn argued “none of he above.” Kuhn saw no “scientific method” looking at the history of science.
Khun did argue this and I think he is completely correct. He did; however, provide some guidelines to what constitutes a good scientific theory. Some of key guidelines include predictive power, accuracy, and consistency. Unlike Popper, Khun presents his guidelines as helpful indicators, not a litmus test.
I recently read his “Structure of Scientific Revolutions” and found it to be consistent with pragmatism. Within the current scientific paradigm could we still say that there is a method?
That is a good read. Given that even Popper used the term “magic” to describe the creative process of science, I don’t think we can say there is a scientific method that could be reduced to neat and tidy rules. After all, science (at least research as opposed to education or practice of it) is more about what we don’t know than what we do know. It would be very limiting indeed to confine the creative discovery process to such and such rules.

Thanks for the reply. Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the issue.
 
Anyone who thinks there is one and only one methodology of science must consider the following:

*“God does not play dice with the universe.” – Einstein

“Who are you to tell God what to do?” – Bohr

“God not only plays dice, but sometimes throws them where they cannot be
seen.” – Hawking

“God plays dice with the universe, but they’re loaded dice.” Ford *

How could the same single methodology produce such disparate conclusions? And they say theologians are a wild bunch!
 
Newtonian physics has not been replaced by quantum mechanics. The two do not address the same things. Quantum physics is particle physics, which is microcosmic. Newton’s physics is celestial mechanics, which is macrocosmic.

And universities do not put mathematics among the sciences, it is in the liberal arts department. Science does not begin with mathematics. It always begins with observation. There are thousands of kinds of mathematics, Very few are useful to the sciences. The sciences use math for documentation of their work of observation.

New science is discovered through new observations. It is extremely rare that a pure mathematical result shows us anything new about reality.
 
So Popper, influenced by the Hegelian school, was the among the first and most prominent philosophers of science to attempt a litmus test for science. Falsifiability was a central feature of the boundaries he attempted to set. It didn’t take long before scientists and other philosophers objected. Scientists do routinely form hypotheses that are not falsifiable, such as the previous example of the super heavy island. Philosophers of science, Popper foremost soon added the role of confirmation. Although we cannot falsify the super heavy island hypothesis, we can confirm it by producing one of the predicted atoms. This too led to problems. Consider the hypothesis, “all chemicals have a temperature and pressure range in which they are liquid.” How can this be falsified? Suppose we could not make one stubborn chemical into a liquid. We still have not falsified the hypothesis because there are infinite combination of temperature and pressure ranges. How can the hypothesis be confirmed? Can we ever be sure we have discovered and tested every chemical (this is the classic problem of induction elucidated so well by Hume et al)? Yet the hypothesis not only seems to be well within the realm of science, it seems to be correct.

So eventually the role of conditionality and self-correction came into play. What separates science from pseudoscience and religion, said some philosophers, is that science considers all of its constructs conditional, subject to correction and improvement. There are many problems here, but two are most glaring. First, who’s to say for sure a correction is really an improvement? We were wrong the first time, maybe we’re just as wrong with the correction. Second, pseudoscience and religion can and do self-correct. Popper argued that it was a different type of correction, but for all intents and purposes admitted that it was a subjective evaluation.

I wish I could find the quote, but eventually Popper poetically summed up his frustration trying to find a neat and tidy answer to what is scientific. He basically claimed that science needs its magic too, but that it is fundamentally different from the magic of pseudoscience or religion.
Can you recommend some reading on this debate between Juhn and Popper?
Khun did argue this and I think he is completely correct. He did; however, provide some guidelines to what constitutes a good scientific theory. Some of key guidelines include predictive power, accuracy, and consistency. Unlike Popper, Khun presents his guidelines as helpful indicators, not a litmus test.
Another interesting suggestion that Kuhn made is that the answer to the question of why science seems unique in that it progresses while other areas of study do not is that we call an area of study a science if it is seen to progress.
That is a good read. Given that even Popper used the term “magic” to describe the creative process of science, I don’t think we can say there is a scientific method that could be reduced to neat and tidy rules. After all, science (at least research as opposed to education or practice of it) is more about what we don’t know than what we do know. It would be very limiting indeed to confine the creative discovery process to such and such rules.

Thanks for the reply. Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the issue.
I wonder if you would have any thoughts on the Morality and Science thread where we are also discussing philosphy of science to some extent and what science can say about morality. Do you think morality can be a science? If you have any thoughts it would be best to post them in that thread.

Best,
Leela
 
Can you recommend some reading on this debate between Juhn and Popper?
I’ve not read anything that deals with the contrasts between these two in one book, just reading one side and the other brings out the arguments and contrasts.
Another interesting suggestion that Kuhn made is that the answer to the question of why science seems unique in that it progresses while other areas of study do not is that we call an area of study a science if it is seen to progress.
I think the definition of progress is key. The key to that is in many cases predictive power. World religions make predictions that are vague or fail and even when they fail they are not abandoned. Science make specific predictions that if not confirmed are abandoned, even if it takes some time for the more stubborn to come around.
I wonder if you would have any thoughts on the Morality and Science thread where we are also discussing philosphy of science to some extent and what science can say about morality.
I’ve not been engaged in this thread, but I have written elsewhere here that science should start playing a more central role in morality. Specifically, we observe primitive morality among social primates and especially apes. We also can use game theory to analyze why humans intentionally choose less than optimal strategies for themselves. In many cases the game theory results show that these supposedly “irrational” strategies have a good purpose for a social group even at the expense of the individual. Unfortunately, we evolved for these strategies to work in small hunter-gatherer groups. Since the age of agriculture some 5% of our history ago, these strategies are less than optimal for large groups. There is a lot that science can contribute to morality.
Do you think morality can be a science? If you have any thoughts it would be best to post them in that thread./quote}
I’ll take a look and post something.
Take care.
 
Leela

Another interesting suggestion that Kuhn made is that the answer to the question of why science seems unique in that it progresses while other areas of study do not is that we call an area of study a science if it is seen to progress.

Ah, I’m not so sure nuclear weapons are not more a sign of regress than progress … for the whole world and everything in it. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
aileron

*I’ve not been engaged in this thread, but I have written elsewhere here that science should start playing a more central role in morality. *

By all means, join us there. It will be interesting to hear you explain how the whole world is supposed to understand morality by studying game theory. And how game theory will produce something more profound than “Love one another.”
 
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