There can only be One Church that has the Final Authority.

[ufamtobie]

Matt 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Jesus Christ himself says that the Church has the final Authority to cast out those who do not LISTEN to the Church. Jesus Christ listed 3 steps

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

So in your opinion which step had the Final Authority?

Above Matt 18:18 In the 3rd step Jesus Christ did not give the Final Authority to everyone to bind, bound, loose, or loosed upon earth or also in heaven this only the Church has the Authority to do, Guided by the Holy Spirit.

There’s only one Church that has this Final Authority in all regards to the teachings of Christ and the Laws of God and it is the Catholic Church, the Church of the Early Church Fathers, who compiled the New Testament, the unbroken line of succession of the Popes from Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, rich in History and Facts, the Church that still stands for over 2000 years and counting until HE COMES AGAIN with the same teachings from day one to the present. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[joe370]

Matt 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Jesus Christ himself says that the Church has the final Authority to cast out those who do not LISTEN to the Church. Jesus Christ listed 3 steps

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

So in your opinion which step had the Final Authority?

Above Matt 18:18 In the 3rd step Jesus Christ did not give the Final Authority to everyone to bind, bound, loose, or loosed upon earth or also in heaven this only the Church has the Authority to do, Guided by the Holy Spirit.

There’s only one Church that has this Final Authority in all regards to the teachings of Christ and the Laws of God and it is the Catholic Church, the Church of the Early Church Fathers, who compiled the New Testament, the unbroken line of succession of the Popes from Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, rich in History and Facts, the Church that still stands for over 2000 years and counting until HE COMES AGAIN with the same teachings from day one to the present. Amen

Ufam Tobie

Get ready for something like:

Where is the word catholic used in that passage…

Of course the real question is:

If it is the church then why do so many non-Catholics claim it is, rather, the Bible?

 

[Nicea325]

Get ready for something like:

Where is the word catholic used in that passage…

Of course the real question is:

If it is the church then why do so many non-Catholics claim it is, rather, the Bible?

Because they have a faulty misunderstanding. The Bible is very clear who Christ left as the authority: His Church…not the Bible. Christ founded His Church here on earth for the sinners,he did not come to write the Bible and say it is the final authority.

 

[joe370]

Because they have a faulty misunderstanding. The Bible is very clear who Christ left as the authority: His Church…not the Bible. Christ founded His Church here on earth for the sinners,he did not come to write the Bible and say it is the final authority.

 

[ufamtobie]

Get ready for something like:

Where is the word catholic used in that passage…

Of course the real question is:

If it is the church then why do so many non-Catholics claim it is, rather, the Bible?

Joe, I put this thread Re: “There can only be One Church that has the final Authority” weeks ago on October 12 2011 and it has gotten 167 views with only 2 replies back from Catholics one is yours : )

I know that not all of the 167 viewers who read this thread were Catholic many were Non Catholic, theses non Catholics I am still waiting for their reply to this thread. Could it be they have no answer back regarding Matt 18: 15-18? Could it be that they are finding out that there is only “One Church that has the final Authority” and not the Bible?

I’m still waiting,

Ufam Tobie

 

[Nicea325]

Joe, I put this thread Re: “There can only be One Church that has the final Authority” weeks ago on October 12 2011 and it has gotten 167 views with only 2 replies back from Catholics one is yours : )

I know that not all of the 167 viewers who read this thread were Catholic many were Non Catholic, theses non Catholics I am still waiting for their reply to this thread. Could it be they have no answer back regarding Matt 18: 15-18? Could it be that they are finding out that there is only “One Church that has the final Authority” and not the Bible?

I’m still waiting,

Ufam Tobie

Evidently they do not reply because it is logical not every single denomination has the final authority.

 

[JonNC]

Because they have a faulty misunderstanding. The Bible is very clear who Christ left as the authority: His Church…not the Bible. Christ founded His Church here on earth for the sinners,he did not come to write the Bible and say it is the final authority.

Greetings, my friend Nicea.
At least for me, it isn’t a dichotomy. Of course He left us the Church as the authority, and as Ufam says, we are told to take it to the Church. What I would say is that the Church practices hermeunetics, as it should, and the Church determines doctrine, using scripture as the final norm to determine said doctrines.

I had a brief chat with my pastor about this the other night, and he agreed with me that as Lutherans we are bound to the teachings of the Church, our individual interpretations notwithstanding.

So, the question is where does that authority reside for interpretation. And my oft-said stance is that, when there is unity amongst the patriarchates, it clearly will reside with them.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Evidently they do not reply because it is logical not every single denomination has the final authority.

And you know me, the fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

Greetings, my friend Nicea.
At least for me, it isn’t a dichotomy. Of course He left us the Church as the authority, and as Ufam says, we are told to take it to the Church. What I would say is that the Church practices hermeunetics, as it should, and the Church determines doctrine, using scripture as the final norm to determine said doctrines.

I had a brief chat with my pastor about this the other night, and he agreed with me that as Lutherans we are bound to the teachings of the Church, our individual interpretations notwithstanding.

So, the question is where does that authority reside for interpretation. And my oft-said stance is that, when there is unity amongst the patriarchates, it clearly will reside with them.

Jon

Blessings my brother in Christ. I must say as separated brethren you sure are honest,sincere and very respectful. Imagine if all Christians expressed the same? Wow!

 

[Nicea325]

And you know me, the fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread.

Jon

:thumbsup:

 

[Sufjon]

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

So in your opinion which step had the Final Authority?

I have a question. At the time, weren’t local disputes and small civil issues brought to the church for resolution? My understanding is that this was customary. If that’s the case, this might as well just serve as everyday living advice on handling disputes rather than conferring any sort of spiritual authority on a particular institution. To me, at best, it’s ambiguous. Rome aside, the world at the time lacked large centralized governments, and Rome would hardly trouble itself on a local dispute between two Jews. Sounds like it’s just some practical advice on how to manage local affairs. To me this seems like another example of wording that was just ambiguous enough for some rather ambitious people to see an opportunity in it. Or it can be as you say. But it’s not definitive in my view.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[BrianGular]

Get ready for something like:

Where is the word catholic used in that passage…

Of course the real question is:

If it is the church then why do so many non-Catholics claim it is, rather, the Bible?

I don’t know, Joe. I think it’s a pretty big leap to use Matt 18 to justify the authority of an international organization. The word Jesus uses in the Greek (ecclesia) suggests a local assembly. Paul seems to support this view in 1 Cor 6 when he admonishes the Corinthians with, “Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers…” It’s not a big leap to go from a brother sinning against you to a dispute between brothers. The view that Jesus and Paul teach that the local body has authority in such a matter is the simplest explanation. To claim otherwise requires great leaps and bounds.

Note that the scriptures are not explicitly in play here–except that we are reading them to ascertain God’s revelation to us about how to handle this matter. It’s a safe assumption that Jesus and Paul implicitly point us to the scriptures as a guide to determine what a sin is. That is authority, too.

 

[joe370]

Hey Brian…

BrianGular;8539291]I don’t know, Joe. I think it’s a pretty big leap to use Matt 18 to justify the authority of an international organization.

It would be a huge leap to attempt to justify the authority of Jesus’ established church leadership on just one passage! Of course I would never make such a claim.

The word Jesus uses in the Greek (ecclesia) suggests a local assembly.

Local assemblies, regardless of geographic location, all one and united, as per John 17, doctrinally or otherwise? Agreed.

Autonomous local assemblies, regardless of geographic location, loosely connected? Nah…

 

[ufamtobie]

I have a question. At the time, weren’t local disputes and small civil issues brought to the church for resolution? My understanding is that this was customary. If that’s the case, this might as well just serve as everyday living advice on handling disputes rather than conferring any sort of spiritual authority on a particular institution. To me, at best, it’s ambiguous. Rome aside, the world at the time lacked large centralized governments, and Rome would hardly trouble itself on a local dispute between two Jews. Sounds like it’s just some practical advice on how to manage local affairs. To me this seems like another example of wording that was just ambiguous enough for some rather ambitious people to see an opportunity in it. Or it can be as you say. But it’s not definitive in my view.

Your friend
Sufjon

SufJon,

What part of “tell the Church” don’t you understand? The Church has the Final Authority in all matters of sin. The Church is held in a higher regard than the public courts in the eyes of God in any era, because His Church has the power to cast one out, so much so that the Church can call and treat one as a heathen, and as far as I know, heathens are not allowed in Heaven, unless they return to the Church repented and ask for forgiveness. Jesus Christ gave this power to His Church and then some, for Jesus Christ says right after in Matt 18: 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. SurJon, now does the public courts in any era have this kind of power TO BIND OR LOOSE anything in heaven or on earth? No! Only His Church has this power, So this should tell you that the Lord does hold the Church officials in a higher standard than the Public Courts. The public courts can cast one into jail, but the Church can cast you into hell, again, for there is no heathen in heaven. Don’t get me wrong the Lord is not against the public courts in any era if they act in just judgement.

SufJon, Please, Regards to Rome not wanting the trouble to hear a Jew or two, that is not the point, because didn’t they not have King Herod at the time to hear the disputes of the Jews hmm? The point is that Jesus Christ is telling everyone that His Church has the Final Authority over Rome over King Herod or any Court today.

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Sufjon]

What part of “tell the Church” don’t you understand? The Church has the Final Authority in all matters of sin. The Church is held in a higher regard than the public courts in the eyes of God in any era, because

You sound a bit aggravated. I understood what you said. I explained how you took simple practical advice in local arbitration and turned it into a universal mandate of authority to institutions in regards to spiritual affairs. Making such a conclusion is a quantum leap.

H

His Church has the power to cast one out, so much so that the Church can call and treat one as a heathen, and as far as I know, heathens are not allowed in Heaven, unless they return to the Church repented and ask for forgiveness.

Since Jesus was not specific, I would say that he was giving Peter the “keys” or “secrets” to the kingdom of heaven, and this “truth” or this “key” is the fact that whatever baggage you bind yourself to in this life will bind to you in heaven and what you free yourself of in this life you will be free of in the kingdom of heaven, which is INSIDE of you, not in the ionosphere or somewhere in the sky. So the choice is to live in heaven (which is all around you) bound to things, or to live in heaven (which again is inside you and all around you) free of things that keeping you from seeing that heaven is inside you and all around you. Heaven and hell are the same place. Both have a banquet table in the middle full of tasty things to eat, but both have knives, forks and spoons that are 5 feet long. The difference is that in hell, the people are trying to feed themselves using the 5 foot long knives, forks and spoons. In heaven, they are using them to feed the person across the table from them. It’s the same place, but different state of being. This is what I believe Jesus was saying. Something beautiful, profound and fill of truth. So you decide - which meaning do you want to read into it. Believe what you will, and live out the results of it in your life, but you will not foist that on one who sees the Lord in all things.

The public courts can cast one into jail, but the Church can cast you into hell, again, for there is no heathen in heaven. Don’t get me wrong the Lord is not against the public courts in any era if they act in just judgement.

I have no fear of any judgement on the part of any church to cast me into hell, and if you read that authority into the words of Jesus, you are simply trying to foist your own work onto an institution to do on your behalf. The only person who can consign your soul to heaven is you, an the the only one who can cast it into torment is you. It would be so nice to find an arbitrator who gives you rituals to forgive your sins, pass judgements on you, grant you absolution and so forth, but this is actually between you and God, and He wants to deal with you directly. You are His creation.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

The public courts can cast one into jail, but the Church can cast you into hell, again, for there is no heathen in heaven.

If there is a priest. bishop, cardinal, pope, or council among them that has the authority to cast me into hell, let them come forward here in the place and make themselves known.

 

[Marybeloved]

Since Jesus was not specific, I would say that he was giving Peter the “keys” or “secrets” to the kingdom of heaven, and this “truth” or this “key” is the fact that whatever baggage you bind yourself to in this life will bind to you in heaven and what you free yourself of in this life you will be free of in the kingdom of heaven, which is INSIDE of you, not in the ionosphere or somewhere in the sky.

Of course this is a Hindu interpretation of christian scriptures outside christian understanding of it in the early church down the ages. Like me reading christian concepts into Islamic texts or texts of other religious traditions. Christ was not a Hindu but a Jew in 1st century Palestine. His sayings cannot be legitimately separated from their context. He clearly says that it is on Peter that he builds his church, the keys of the kingdom are a clear biblical allusion to the keys in the OT that the Prime Minister got from the King to rule the kingdom on his behalf/in his absence. And Christ says to the Apostles whosoever’s sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained in heaven. He gives them authority, does not allude to eastern concepts of inner truth, beautiful though they are.

So the choice is to live in heaven (which is all around you) bound to things, or to live in heaven (which again is inside you and all around you) free of things that keeping you from seeing that heaven is inside you and all around you. Heaven and hell are the same place. Both have a banquet table in the middle full of tasty things to eat, but both have knives, forks and spoons that are 5 feet long. The difference is that in hell, the people are trying to feed themselves using the 5 foot long knives, forks and spoons. In heaven, they are using them to feed the person across the table from them. It’s the same place, but different state of being. This is what I believe Jesus was saying. Something beautiful, profound and fill of truth. So you decide - which meaning do you want to read into it. Believe what you will, and live out the results of it in your life, but you will not foist that on one who sees the Lord in all things.

This is beautiful and true- I don’t see what it has to do with the specific passage though. Of course it’s not true that the church can cast an innocent person into hell or permit an evil person into heaven- God himself won’t do that. But the church is Christ’s body and has means of salvation-Binding and losing refers to making dispensations for the benefit or in service of the faithful.

I have no fear of any judgement on the part of any church to cast me into hell, and if you read that authority into the words of Jesus, you are simply trying to foist your own work onto an institution to do on your behalf. The only person who can consign your soul to heaven is you, an the the only one who can cast it into torment is you. It would be so nice to find an arbitrator who gives you rituals to forgive your sins, pass judgements on you, grant you absolution and so forth, but this is actually between you and God, and He wants to deal with you directly. You are His creation.

God himself gave us the sacraments which correspond to our nature- body and spirit. Tangible things with grace. One is confession which he gave when he said whosoever’s sins you forgive- And your description is a caricature- Confession is between us and God and is thoroughly spiritual like everything Catholic when done properly as evident in the saints. It is highly beneficial to those who make earnest use of it, forcing us to confront ourselves w/out excuses and gives a chance to begin again. Just ask Carl Jung! I wonder if Hinduism has no rituals or ceremonies?

Our faith lived well is rich! Examples abound in the saints who are always absolutely faithful to church teaching many times to the point of death- Our doctrines, laws and spirituality, both corporeal and interior is in complete harmony. And the church is a treasury- it does not do our spirituality/growth for us- that is a strange notion you introduced. If that were true we would have no saints or the immensely rich spiritual traditions we do.

Peace!

 

[Tony888]

Jesus Christ himself says that the Church has the final Authority to cast out those who do not LISTEN to the Church. Jesus Christ listed 3 steps

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

So in your opinion which step had the Final Authority?

Ufam Tobie

I urge you to read the quote again,
It provides 3 strikes advice on how to deal with a sinner, a person
The advice works for every individual who is a member of any Christian church
It has nothing to do with Final Authority, since the Chuch takes no action.

 

[bz5]

---

I urge you to read the quote again,
It provides 3 strikes advice on how to deal with a sinner, a person
The advice works for every individual who is a member of any Christian church
It has nothing to do with Final Authority, since the Chuch takes no action.

**

**

If there isn’t a physical, visible church, then how can the sinner know he’s sinning? Take a woman who wants an abortion, for example. She could get conflicting advice from all of the above. There are churches, including yours, who would tell her it’s okay, at least under certain circumstances. But the Catholic church, which Jesus established, can be relied upon to tell her the truth - it’s NOT okay, it’s murder. The fact that the church is being led into all truth, as Jesus promised, is the point. But it’s also not true that the church can take no action. A person in public sin can be denied the sacraments or even excommunicated - or, in the case of having an abortion knowing it’s wrong, she’d automatically excommunicate herself. That is not the church’s way of saying, “Get out, we don’t want your kind around here!” It’s a way of saying, “Brother, sister, we love you, and you are seriously on a wrong path. Wake up before it’s too late.”

 

[Marie_Gregg]

So, this could be a dumb question, but I’ll ask anyway.

What does the word “church” mean in this passage? When I think of church, I think of Paul writing of the Body of believers. So, if you tell the church, do you tell everyone in your congregation? That would seem to be problematic to me, as there could be people present who don’t know the Lord. Or does church here mean those in positions of authority, like a pastor, priest, elder, etc.? That also seems problematic, because then aren’t you leaving parts of the Body (the church) out?

My question is genuine. I’m in a position of leadership in my congregation and I often wonder what the best way of handling conflict or outright sin is in light of this passage.