There have been 'many' Apostasies?

[Hellisreal]

“how the Church will discern when humanity is incurable”

And, you are thinking that the Church would make an announcement to such effect?



Or are you thinking that the Church does not think about this enough?

You came along and now suddenly, the Church needs to contemplate this?

No one else has before now?

 

[spauline]

“how the Church will discern when humanity is incurable”

And, you are thinking that the Church would make an announcement to such effect?



Or are you thinking that the Church does not think about this enough?

You came along and now suddenly, the Church needs to contemplate this?

No one else has before now?

well, no, I don’t mean the Church in general in the sense of its holy theologians throughout history. I mean typical lay Catholics in the modern West. They don’t seem to care in any sense. Or maybe I’m wrong? I don’t know, what do you think?

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Let me put in another way: I’m not interested in merely the WHAT of Salvation history, even if this about the spiritual subages of Salvation history. It’s not just that but the WHY. HOW will man get into an incurable spiritual depravity? Which is inseparabel from the antecedent question: what will the fullness of the Redemption be in the Gentiles?

I thought we gave up.

Do you honestly think you can forsee that far or that man will actually ever get into an incurable depravity?

If you look at History and Scripture together I think that notion is contrary to the current understanding of revelation and the advancment of mankind.

The Holy Spirit is not going to stop leading the Pillar of Truth and Jesus is not going to let the Gates of hell prevail.

At the very least there will be a remnant of the faithful who will not be decieved by the Syrian.

Sin draws us all toward apostacy. In that regard, are we then to insult Mercy by doubting it can meet us in the abyss of our apostacy and overcome it?

The apostacy that leads to heresy or schism is no exception. Its outside some of the pomises of God but not his Mercy.

 

[spauline]

And I wish to apologize from my heart to everyone here that has seen my unchartiableness. I have sinned, and ask forgiveness. Yes, I do have a sense of frustration that leads to uncharitableness because I am rather obsessed. Please forgive me, everyone, if you can. I will try to be more charitable and respectful in the future. (Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.)

 

[KatholikosMercy]

well, no, I don’t mean the Church in general in the sense of its holy theologians throughout history. I mean typical lay Catholics in the modern West. They don’t seem to care in any sense. Or maybe I’m wrong? I don’t know, what do you think?

I think the more fervor in amendment a Catholic has toward the labors of the struggle the more abundant graces he will merrit.

A zelous and diligent person will make a greater progress in virtue but the less zelous isn’t necessarily so luke warm/apostate that the Lord will vomit him out.

To undully focus on the sins of our fellow men in the Church is to take our focus off Christ for the sake of a speck when it should be on Jesus and the plank in our own.

 

[Hellisreal]

I did not think badly of you Spauline, I was getting the impression you thought the Church had never contemplated these things that’s all.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Your example of humilty is accepted and appreciated.

By your actions we all can see who you serve sir.

Rest easy, no hard feelings here.

I pray that you find everything you are driven to seek.

 

[spauline]

I thought we gave up.

Do you honestly think you can forsee that far or that man will actually ever get into an incurable depravity?

If you look at History and Scripture together I think that notion is contrary to the current understanding of revelation and the advancment of mankind.

The Holy Spirit is not going to stop leading the Pillar of Truth and Jesus is not going to let the Gates of hell prevail.

At the very least there will be a remnant of the faithful who will not be decieved by the Syrian.

Sin draws us all toward apostacy. In that regard, are we then to insult Mercy by doubting it can meet us in the abyss of our apostacy and overcome it?

The apostacy that leads to heresy or schism is no exception. Its outside some of the pomises of God but not his Mercy.

Please forgive me, KatholikosMercy, I didn’t mean an absolute apostasy. Of course, a remnant of Gentiles shall remain faithful, and the general(?) whole of the Jews shall accept the Gospel as well.

And yes, the Church shall always remain. amen. The gates shall not prevail. But I thought it is general Catholic understanding, as regards the discourse in 2 Thessalonians, that a point shall be reached in which “inquity” can no longer be “restrained”, not that the Holy Spirit is not capable of forgiving, but that , perhaps as one explanation, the nature of humanity’s rejection of the truth will be practically unforgivable, for example as the Catechism relates to the fall of the angels. That is, it was the intrinsic irrevocable nature of the demons’ choice, and it’s unchangeableness that rendered it “unforgivable”. And toward that end, what are suggesting? That at the end of the world, the Gentiles will, as a near whole, yet be able to come back to faith, but that God will condemn them anyway? It would seem to me that if humanity is capable of being redeemed from a limitless number of apostasies, why would God end the world at any time? It wouldn’t be just. That’d be like a priest who says, “You’ve already confessed this 777 times, that’s it. Even if you’re sorry, so what. Sianara.”

Again, I am not at all implying that I believe that age is here. I have great faith and trust in the mercy of God that He can fully heal the world and bring restoration. I do NOT believe this is the very end. And yet, it seems the Church does believe in its general although undefined teaching that eventually, the NEAR whole (but there will a faithful remnant) of the world will come to turn from Christ in a final manner in which he cannot get up. Hence (maybe? ) , after Jesus had fallen the third time, humanly he couldn’t get up. So then maybe a hint here? BTW, modern crises is second fall. I know its just my personal thoughts, but I"m just suggesting it. I don’t think the Church believes that the process of falling and getting back up can go on indefinitely. Eventually there’s a final fall?

But please share with me your thoughts. And I am really serious here. I wish to dialog.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

It’s late but I will get back to this tomorrow.

I actually have had several theories about the end times ever since traveling to Medjugorje 12 years ago that have seemed to evolve a bit.

My current theory includes Islam in the mix. I can see Muhammad mentioned in Revelations if I look hard enough.

I believe I can explain peaceful unity of the monotheistic religions as the reason why Jesus might return on a grand scale (humbly in theory of course).

What intrigues me is how Jesus will be recognized at his return.

There are several instances after the resurrection that Jesus wasn’t immediately recognized by those he had been closest to that are noteworthy.

Prophesy says there will be a sign in the sky that not everyone will heed.

There is some merit to me that the idea the sign in the sky and recognition of the Lord is only on an individual basis.

Not only does this line of thought sound radical but I think its easy to get side tracked on it to the detriment of what is the more important message of the written and spoken words of God and I have seen it happen to friends of mine before.

That message is of becoming as a little child so as to enter the kingdom. I often ask myself: would a little child be thinking this stuff up? As I watch the elderly in what they find most important in life so near to meeting our maker.

I was recently entertained by a Messianic Jewish theory more interesting than the whore of babylon. toddsumrall.com/endtimes/index.html
which concerns the Syrian as the beast in relation to the rebuilding of the temple in Israel.

It was bent but just the same it did lead me to do a bit more research into the Nestorian schism and the path of the Chaldean Apostolic Church. What I would give to be able to read Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

I would be interested to hear more specifically (by chapter and verse) what you mean by the “discourse in 2 Thessalonians” that you mentioned.

 

[spauline]

…
I would be interested to hear more specifically (by chapter and verse) what you mean by the “discourse in 2 Thessalonians” that you mentioned.

hi, Katholikos,

Sorry for being late. Haven’t had time to get back. I will try to put together a brief synopsis of this when I get a chance.

Blessings to you and all of us as we probe the mysteries of our faith!

In Her Love,
Scott