There Is A Difference

[Star_of_Dollar]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen

I came across a discussion which is not out of the scope of traditional accusations towards Roman Catholicism such as the issue of objects used in the ritual of prayers, objects such as icons, idols, etc.

This polite discussion was different from prior typical accusations from protestants, however this new fresh prespective originated from a protestant.

This it how it was presented to me.

The method or technique used whereby idols or icons are used as a focus or direction to concentrate prayers too is well understood its intent and beauty of its ritual is very clearly understood. The object for example Jesus or Mary used as a direction of visible sight shows clear undulterated and focussed attention and meditation to the diety.

This was well received by me and I was told that this method was well known in countries prior to Jesus’s days such as in south asia where the Buddha image is used by this method and also numerous Hindu dieties are honoured and prayed to by such means.

I understood the meaning perfectly as a Roman Catholic.

Then I was told that what I failed to understand was that this method was well known in the region surrounding the Israelite nation where the worship of other dieties or gods were practised. That these foreign to Israel God worships in the surrounding region including as far away as Rome and Greece had similar technique that is very well understood and appreciated in the world today as it was centuries ago. Then I was told that it was not as if these non Israel worships were doing satanic rituals and offering human sacrifices or performing sexual acts towards their dieties.

Finaly towards the end of the discussion I was told that this technique or method was “abhored” and highly disliked and disrespectful to the God of Israel. It is not that something new had been created by the Church from it’s early days but that this practise was abhored regardless of how deeply appreciative or understandingly loving the devotion appears.

Well what was I to say in reaction to the discussion?

I apologized if my worship caused such distaste to the Protestant Christians, but what I felt like saying was where the source of these scriptures come from i.e. the Roman Church or its other church systems in the region are they today as authentic as there were from centuries ago before the Protestant Churches sprung up. By this I meant specifically that if our way is so abhoring are these verses that we preach to the world authentic due to it came from people such as us to begin with. I did not say this no doubt but sure would like to had had.

Thanking all of you in appreciation to had read my cause.

Kind Regards,
Star of Dollar.

 

[kmuestwin]

Never apologize for doing the right thing. Especially when confronted by someone trying to proselytize you. Always uphold the Truth that you have been taught and don’t lessen the faith by bending to those who accuse you of falsehoods.

Attacks like these are used to weaken the Church from the outside. Now, this person can say, “After I told him the right way to pray, he apologized for having offended God.”

That’s not the way it happened but that’s the way the story will be told the third and fourth time it is repeated.

 

[Like]

I apologized if my worship caused such distaste to the Protestant Christians, but what I felt like saying was where the source of these scriptures come from i.e. the Roman Church or its other church systems in the region are they today as authentic as there were from centuries ago before the Protestant Churches sprung up. By this I meant specifically that if our way is so abhoring are these verses that we preach to the world authentic due to it came from people such as us to begin with. I did not say this no doubt but sure would like to had had.

Thanking all of you in appreciation to had read my cause.

Kind Regards,
Star of Dollar.

Star of Dollar, very good advice from kmuestwin (below).

Never apologize for doing the right thing. Especially when confronted by someone trying to proselytize you. Always uphold the Truth that you have been taught and don’t lessen the faith by bending to those who accuse you of falsehoods.

Attacks like these are used to weaken the Church from the outside. Now, this person can say, “After I told him the right way to pray, he apologized for having offended God.”

That’s not the way it happened but that’s the way the story will be told the third and fourth time it is repeated.

 

[thewanderer]

Finaly towards the end of the discussion I was told that** this technique or method** was “abhored” and highly disliked and disrespectful to the God of Israel. It is not that something new had been created by the Church from it’s early days but that this practise was abhored regardless of how deeply appreciative or understandingly loving the devotion appears.

To be honest, I think this is the** very **questionable claim made. Why does he claim that it is the technique and not the deity involved in the worship that was abhored? It nowhere says that this particular technique was abhored, rather the Bible says that one should not worship idols. What does worshipping idols mean? It means giving worship to anyone/thing which is not the one true God. So when the Bible says that one should not worsship idols and that other nations were wrong to do say it is not in any way shape or form condemning the use of externals to help us focus our worship on the one true God, it is saying don’t give this kind of worship to anyone but the one true God.

 

[manualman]

This is nothing but new curtains on the same old lame anticatholicism argument.

The problem with idols is that they are IDOLS. An idol is a god envisioned by man’s imagination and experience. The man makes the god. Our God has revealed himself to us. We didn’t invent him, He invented US! Idolators construct their ‘graven images’ out of an evil desire to gain influence over their gods. Even if they don’t literally believe that the statue is God, idolatry is still wrong because the purpose of the idol is to worship a god that is the construct of human imagination (which is by definition fallen).

Images of Christ or the saints don’t have that problem. Instead of helping the believer focus on an imaginary god, they help him to focus on the REAL God! A God who has revealed his nature and character to us in Christ.

In short they read the text, they understand the words, but they fail to comprehend the message. Just like the rest of the anticatholics.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I suppose you meant to include statues as well , Star of Dollar . . . ?

. . . Just saying , because icons tend to belong to our Eastern Church while statues belong to our Western Church.

3 Definitions from Modern Catholic Dictionary, Fr. John Hardon, S.J. :

ICON

A flat painting, sacred picture of the Eastern Church. It is generally painted on wood and covered, except the face and hands, with relief of seed pearls and gold or silver. The icon of the saint of the day is usually displayed on an analogion. Icons of Our Lord and Our Lady are reverenced with great devotion, incensed, carried in processions, and normally placed on the iconostasis screen. The icons in the Eastern Church take the place of statues in the West. (Etym. Greek eikōn, image.)

STATUE.
A likeness of Christ, the Blessed Virgin, or one of the saints, or a symbolic form of an angel, sculptured, carved, or cast in a solid material, and venerated by the faithful. Its purpose is to recall the person whom the statue represents in order to inspire greater piety. Christians do not worship statues as idols.

IDOL.
Any creature that is given divine honors. It need not be a figure or representation, and may be a person. In fact, it may be oneself, or some creation of one’s own mind or will. An object becomes an idol when it is treated as an end in itself, with no reference to God. (Etym. Latin idolum, image, picture, idol; from Greek eidolon, phantom, idol.)

Whoever’s words those are following

“this is the way it was presented to me”

, they appear to be substituting the word “idol” for “statue” . I would first refer you back to thewanderer’s and manualman’s posts , which do a good job of describing what an “idol” is ; particularly in God’s eyes. That’s why we use the word “statue” - and that’s why the protestants you were discussing with most likely use the words “photograph” or “bust” , instead of “graven image”. And as Fr. Hardon additionally pointed out, an idol can even be one’s self.

Poor form, I’m afraid - to use ambiguous language such as “idols and icons” ; it places icons and statues all in the same group synonymously with “idols”. :dts:

We can’t expect to reason with these people to any great extent when they attack our faith. They probably couldn’t explain to us the relationship between the prayerful petition (of the individual & the Church) and of the sacramental (if they even knew what a sacramental was). By the time we’d asked them to explain what happens when a sacramental is blessed , and what happens when we use it , if we got any coherent answer out of them at all, it would probably contain lots more um, . . . . . . “abhorring” things besides their butchered definitions.

 

[Star_of_Dollar]

I am pleased with the replies received from the readers of the Catholic Answers.

I have purchased a small statue of Jesus’s Mother from the Church. I had it blessed by the Priest. I told the priest it needs to be blessed. I intended it for my landlady who is an Anglican.

I had placed the statue in the Living room above the fireplace in New Zealand.

I read a little description on the idol that said something about it being luminous, as if the mateiral was type giving out light. There was not of course. One day during the winter, weeks ago, the fire place was lit, and when it was time to leave the room I turned off the light, and on my way out of the door I noticed the statue was bright, it was radiating a small amout of light. This I realised was due to the material being a type that exhibited such a property when it was warm, at a higher than normal room temperature.

One night I showed it to my landlady when the fireplace was on by turning the light off, she liked the effect she saw.

Its winter here, 9th August 2013, wishing all a Merry Christmas from the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[OraLabora]

The point is we are using icons to help us direct our prayer to the One True God. The worshippers of idols in Israel were in fact invoking magic powers in the object itself. The worship did not go past the object.

One can argue that the “object” is also in fact metaphor for the worship of idols that goes on to this day: money, power, shiny new objects like fancy cars, jewelry, always sporting the latest fashions, etc. We direct our desires towards possession of those objects and not to God, or we worship ourselves in seeking for ourselves nearly god-like powers (ask anyone who’s had a tyrant boss…).

That’s the difference between an icon, and an idol.