E
Esdra
Guest
to be continued…
- Status
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Esdra
Guest
In Christ,Keep studying. Like me, you may find as you continue that the Church founded by Christ is, indeed, Catholic.
It isn’t. I am convinced. I have even found out for myself. I am studying the Holy Bible for almost eight years now!
Yes. I think this prideful response is responsible for most of the division in the Body of Christ. It was certainly the major factor in the Great Schism of 1054.
A point we can agree on. Wow!
When you get to the Early Fathers, you will find the Apostles taught that the valid gathering is that which is united with the Bishop.
I know what I believe. And I know it is true. I have found out most of the teachings for myself even before I started to attend Anabaptist services! So, for me this is the proove that the Holy Spirit guided me here. This is the place where He wants me to have.
When you read up on the Reformation, perhaps you will be enlightened.
Sorry, not sure what you are meaning. ?
While it is true that the NT scripture was produced out of Sacred Tradition, they are complimentary, not identical. Sacred Tradition enables us to understant the Scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it.
Well, again a point we can’t agree on…
You have been given misinformation about the history of your faith. This information is not accurate.
It is! I am sure. Consider, I have been studying Ancient History at university!
The pagans were forced to become Christians. This is historical fact! Otherwise they were prosecuted and killed. Is this not a little bit utopical to think that all pagans all of a sudden accepted Christ Jesus? Just because 312 AD Christianity became the main religion? What the Church did then is implementing some of the cults the pagans were worshipping! So both were happy. Best example is All Saints and All Souls Day. They were pagan death-cults. Or why do you think Christmas is celebrated on December 25? This is also a pagan cult, I have read somewhere - but I don’t know where and which feast it was. And there are far more examples. The gods became Saints. - And although the Christians are not allowed to worship them - some inofficially certainly did. And the Blessed Virgin Mary is “the decestor” of a mother deity.
It is not possible to “force” someone to become a Christian. You have been misled.
But this what they did! See above! Just as Islam did.
You are confused and misinformed.
I am not. This is historical fact. Take out your old history book and read the Ancient History there. The Romans always have implemented the cults of the peoples they have defeated! Why should they stop doing so when they became Christians?!
You are absolutely correct on this. Catholics retain the Teaching of the Apostles about the nature of the Church. The Reformers and their sprititual descendents, such as the Anabaptists, have departed from the Apostolic teaching.
Nevertheless, I consider myself belonging to the One Church described in the Scriptures and in the Nicene Creed.
You are functioning at a disadvantage, because you have lost the meaning of some of the elements in the Nicean creed.
Please, read again the Nicene Creed I have posted! And then tell me which elements I have lost following the Anabaptist way!
It is curious you would accept such a creed, since you claim it originated by a corrupt church that had incorporated paganism.
I never said that everything is wrong in the Catholic Church. They have parts of the Truth just as every denomination has. There is no visible one true Church.
Esdra
M
minkymurph
Guest
From what you say here, and from other posts, what seems to be hard to define if the function of the Church, the role individuals play in it, and how one becomes part of the Church rather than what it actually is. I’m now having difficulty answering my own question.Oh.
Too hard, honestly.
Some people speak of the parish as a church. Some people speak of the entire conglomerated whole of Christianity as the church. As a term it seems to have multiple applications, and perhaps all of them are valid in some sense. But if that is the case, we can be using the same language and talk past one another indefinitely!
We should perhaps try to see it as the early Christians did, if that is possible.
I detest quote mining, because we cannot help but apply our own filters to what we seek, and it reflects our biases. I am as susceptible as any to this weakness. But here goes …
I am writing to all the Churches and I enjoin all …
Saint Ignatios of Antioch - Letter to the Romans
… to the Churches of Galatia: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ …
Saint Paul - Galatians 1:2-3
John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, …
Saint John (or pseudo-John?) Revelations 1:4
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the καθολικός (universal/complete/whole=katholikos/catholic) Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.
Saint Ignatios of Antioch - Letter to the Smyneans
The episcopate is a single whole, in which each bishop enjoys full possession. So is the church a single whole, though it spreads far and wide into a multitude of churches and its fertility increases.
Saint Cyprian of Carthage - On the Unity of the Church
A Church can be a building. Anyone can set up a Church. However, it serves no purpose if no one goes to it, or it has no function or purpose in the lives of others if you know what mean.
Still, nothing to stop people from calling the building they attend a Church.The Church to me is the body of Christ, people, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit holds the people in communion with Christ which is what makes them a Church. I don’t think any Christian would have a problem with that statement. Regarding the role of bishops, this has to do with the role of the Church and how the Church should function rather than what it is which is were there are differences of opinon.
The other issue of controversy is how one becomes part of the body of Christ. When the Holy Spirit touches someone’s life, in a mystical way they are brought into communion with the body of Christ. This person could be an atheist holds back from fully entering into the life of Christ, perhaps due to doubt, but who is being drawn and not rejecting outright the Spirit. There are those who enter into the life of Christ more fully, and there are Saints such as Mother Theresa.
Personally I think this is what the parable of the Wheat and Weeds is all about. There is good and bad in the Kingdom of God and only at the end will they be separated.
Of course everyone else is free to have another take on it.
E
Esdra
Guest
Otherwise, well stated. I am really pleased to hear from a Catholic that he believes what I believe in this respect!From what you say here, and from other posts, what seems to be hard to define if the function of the Church, the role individuals play in it, and how one becomes part of the Church rather than what it actually is. I’m now having difficulty answering my own question.
A Church can be a building. Anyone can set up a Church. However, it serves no purpose if no one goes to it, or it has no function or purpose in the lives of others if you know what mean.
The Church to me is the body of Christ, people, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit holds the people in communion with Christ which is what makes them a Church. I don’t think any Christian would have a problem with that statement. Regarding the role of bishops, this has to do with the role of the Church and how the Church should function rather than what it is which is were there are differences of opinon.
The other issue of controversy is how one becomes part of the body of Christ. When the Holy Spirit touches someone’s life, in a mystical way they are brought into communion with the body of Christ. This person could be an atheist holds back from fully entering into the life of Christ, perhaps due to doubt, but who is being drawn and not rejecting outright the Spirit. There are those who enter into the life of Christ more fully, and there are Saints such as Mother Theresa.
Are you sure that an atheist -even he is touched mystically by Christ (and normally you are not, if you are not searching, this means opening your heart for Jesus) - can become member in the Body of Christ? I have always thought that you have to go to a community of believers, a Church (no matter which denomination) to be part of the One Church.
Personally I think this is what the parable of the Wheat and Weeds is all about. There is good and bad in the Kingdom of God and only at the end will they be separated.
Of course everyone else is free to have another take on it.
God bless you,
Esdra
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, I had a very similar experience as a child. Looking back, I have to admit that I was never really “Catholic” in the sense that I never did understand the faith into which I was baptized, and never took it upon myself to learn. I also felt that I was not “getting enough” from the Catholic Church. I was spiritually and emotionally starving, even though I went to Mass every week.
Yes, I am sure that the situation is quite different, and you are also correct that it is very common for teens to have a spiritual crisis,and leave the Church. It is also a fact that we see our own faults much better in other people, and that whatever we accuse others of doing is most often belonging to ourselves.
It is a good thing that you long to fellowship with people that have a heart of purity and strong desire to walk in the perfection of Christ.
Ok. So long as you are aware that you definition is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.
No, actually, it is not. This misconception is part of the rotton fruit from that misconception.Nothing in humanity is responsible for the formation of the Church. It is an act of grace, accomplished of God. Those who belong to it are not born of men, or of human will, but of the HS.
This is probably the best evidence that you have been misled in your concept of the Church. In fact, as scripture states, the opposite is true. There is only ONE CHURCH. Jesus only founded one. The rest of the ecclesial communities do not qualify as churches, and are started by men.
This is also a common modern misconception. There is a poster here on CAF who champions this view of the 'big tent chrisianit" and is always urging us to make compromises. HOwever, this is not the way of Christ. By the grace of God, the One Church he founded will remain, and He will unite all those who are His. Saying this cannot happen is an expression of disbelieve in His promises.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About the 22 different rites…the rites represent the local customs of the people, their culture, styles…but the transcendence of Catholic faith is shared by them.
I go some times to our local Maronite church. The priest is called ‘Abbouna’, priest father in Lebanese. They have bells. The priest speaks both Aramaic and Syrilac. When he gives out Communion, he speaks Aramaic what Jesus spoke. I look at him, I think he looks alot like Jesus in the image that is alluded to be Him in the shroud. I call him Jesus’ relative. But they have some different vestments. He holds the crucifix up when he is reading the Gospel. And he prays down more pleas for protection by God for his people…and considering the history of Lebanon, I can see why. The people are very nice and they have Lebanese picnic in August and we are all invited. I like going there in July, when it is desert hot here, and it is the time of the Carmelite novena. And I was very impressed one Sunday, and the other attending priest was waiting for my response, when the pastor said we would be having the Eucharistic Prayer of St. John the Evangelist for Mass that day.
The Ethiopians were Catholic. They split off for so many years…then a portion of them returned. We have the Ethiopian Roman Catholics. There are the Orthodox Ethiopians who have even retained ancient Jewish customs. But they are very ethnic driven and keep separate from the Catholics. But it is interesting people do a search in Catholic rites and their time lines…We hardly ever hear of those who broke away from the Roman Church and then would return hundred of years later.
When I read ‘Orthodox’, I am learning about theological differences, but I see its ethnic expression, its different rites.
The primacy of Rome is the point of unity for the 22 rites in the Latin Church. National churches are controlled by secular forces that oppose Christ. I had a friend who went to Shanghai to a Catholic church. The people are starving for God. Even Communists go. He said people come in and fill all the pews. The Mass is said in a punctual way. The Mass ends, they leave. Soon, another crowd comes in, attends, and then dismiss, about 5 congregations coming through. Each Mass is literally packed with people.
The Catholic faith centers on the Nicene Creed and the primacy of Peter. The Church administrates through the Holy Father and all the bishops throughout the world. The bishops in turn represent us and our faith which is considered as important…thus the universal faith.
The problem with universal faith is that its preservation is continual work…the Mass has to use the wording that has the authentic meaning of Christ and His Oral tradition through the Apostles in the many means of expression at Mass – verbal, gestures…even the environment and art of the Church – all the symbols and placement must continue to catechize Who Jesus is, True God and True Man, Savior and Redeemer in the local cultures. It is the human conditions that are always changing.
The Church in essence is mystical…and we, through baptism, are incorporated into the mystical Body of Jesus Christ. We renew our baptismal promises every time we enter a church building blessing ourselves with holy water. I love the universal faith and our use of the sacramentals — water, oil, fire, art…wholistic…humane…Christ becoming Man for us.
I go some times to our local Maronite church. The priest is called ‘Abbouna’, priest father in Lebanese. They have bells. The priest speaks both Aramaic and Syrilac. When he gives out Communion, he speaks Aramaic what Jesus spoke. I look at him, I think he looks alot like Jesus in the image that is alluded to be Him in the shroud. I call him Jesus’ relative. But they have some different vestments. He holds the crucifix up when he is reading the Gospel. And he prays down more pleas for protection by God for his people…and considering the history of Lebanon, I can see why. The people are very nice and they have Lebanese picnic in August and we are all invited. I like going there in July, when it is desert hot here, and it is the time of the Carmelite novena. And I was very impressed one Sunday, and the other attending priest was waiting for my response, when the pastor said we would be having the Eucharistic Prayer of St. John the Evangelist for Mass that day.
The Ethiopians were Catholic. They split off for so many years…then a portion of them returned. We have the Ethiopian Roman Catholics. There are the Orthodox Ethiopians who have even retained ancient Jewish customs. But they are very ethnic driven and keep separate from the Catholics. But it is interesting people do a search in Catholic rites and their time lines…We hardly ever hear of those who broke away from the Roman Church and then would return hundred of years later.
When I read ‘Orthodox’, I am learning about theological differences, but I see its ethnic expression, its different rites.
The primacy of Rome is the point of unity for the 22 rites in the Latin Church. National churches are controlled by secular forces that oppose Christ. I had a friend who went to Shanghai to a Catholic church. The people are starving for God. Even Communists go. He said people come in and fill all the pews. The Mass is said in a punctual way. The Mass ends, they leave. Soon, another crowd comes in, attends, and then dismiss, about 5 congregations coming through. Each Mass is literally packed with people.
The Catholic faith centers on the Nicene Creed and the primacy of Peter. The Church administrates through the Holy Father and all the bishops throughout the world. The bishops in turn represent us and our faith which is considered as important…thus the universal faith.
The problem with universal faith is that its preservation is continual work…the Mass has to use the wording that has the authentic meaning of Christ and His Oral tradition through the Apostles in the many means of expression at Mass – verbal, gestures…even the environment and art of the Church – all the symbols and placement must continue to catechize Who Jesus is, True God and True Man, Savior and Redeemer in the local cultures. It is the human conditions that are always changing.
The Church in essence is mystical…and we, through baptism, are incorporated into the mystical Body of Jesus Christ. We renew our baptismal promises every time we enter a church building blessing ourselves with holy water. I love the universal faith and our use of the sacramentals — water, oil, fire, art…wholistic…humane…Christ becoming Man for us.
G
guanophore
Guest
According to your own admission, you were poorly catechized. You also have embraced a great deal of misinformation. As a result, you conviction that the Catholic Church is not thte one founded by Christ is based upon a foundation of sand.
In spite of the fact that you believe you got “nothing” from your Catholic faith, those of us that understand His grace see in your experience the grace of your baptism leading you into deeper discovery and yearning for HIm. Thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph!
The HS does not lead someone in the opposite direction as He has led the Church for the last 2000 years.
I am curious where you believe your bible came from, or why you would think it is appropriate to read it in isolation from the faith of those who wrote it?
Keep studying. You will find out that what you have been given to believe about the CAtholic Church is not accurate.
Many atrocities have been commited in the name of God. However, it is impossible to “force” anyone to become a Christian. It has to be done freely. People may have been forced to comply with oppression to save their lives, but that does not make them Christian.
No, because we see 3000 converting just at Pentecost alone. However, people being forced to comply with authorities to survive is not the same as having a conversion of heart. No one can be “forced” into belief.
[/QUOTE]Just because 312 AD Christianity became the main religion?
This is a common misrepresentation in the Anabaptist communities. I was taught this as well, and fell for it until I got deeper into history, and realized it is false.
No, Esdra, there are no Catholic celebrations that are a “pagan cult”. If you are willing to learn the truth, you will find this out for yourself.
Out of your own mouth you admit that you have been brainwashed from an unknown source. It is actually fairly common. Fortunately, it is curable with facts. There are many books written which fabricate things like this, and distort history. I think it is important for a serious student to read these, but it is also important not to stop there, but to read other factual accounts as well.
Here you are suffering from more misiniformation. It is not possible for a “god” to become a saint! You are right, though, worshipping any but God alone is idolatry. It is also true that some people do practice idolatry.
This lie is perhaps one of the most painful for those of us who love the Mother of God. Even though I am not sure what you mean by “decestor”, your statement is a blatant falsehood, because she has nothing to do with “mother deity”. Her status as Queen of Heaven emanates from her Divine Son being King of the universe.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, Esdra, they did not. Muslims cannot “force” people to become Muslim either. They can force people into external compliance, but faith and convictions of the heart cannot be compelled.
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and it was not under the control of “Romans”. The Head of the Church is Christ, not the Roman Empire.
I am glad that you have embraced the Truth as you can. One has to start somewhere! IT is better to have a limited version of the Truth than none at all!
As I have pointed out, you are suffereing from a deficient understanding of the nature of “church”. When you say the Creed, you are not embracing the concept of “Church” that the people had who wrote it.
No, but how can you know what is authentic, and what is not?
Catholicism is not a denomination. Denominations are defined by those who broke away from Catholicism. All of them are defined by which parts of the Catholic faith they reject. That is what it means to “de-nominate”. To take ones name and identity from sometihng else.
Jesus founded a visible, One True Church. As long as you deny this, you are denying the Truth of the Scriptures, as well as that Nicene Creed you claim to accept.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Esdra,
I must commend you for your attitude. You are here to sincerely learn. God bless you!
I must commend you for your attitude. You are here to sincerely learn. God bless you!
G
guanophore
Guest
I am glad it pleases you to learn that some of what you believe is consistent with what was believed by the Apostles.Otherwise, well stated. I am really pleased to hear from a Catholic that he believes what I believe in this respect!
God bless you,
Esdra
However, I would urge caution against an attitude of “it pleases me when other people believe as I do”. The rist is that one will look for confirmation of what one already believes, rather than being open to the possiblity that one has embraced error.
G
guanophore
Guest
We are created to search for God, and we all do so, even those who have never heard of Christ, or like yourself, misunderstood Christ because of their experiences.
Therefore, “normally” all are touched by Christ, and are drawn to HIm. Some like yourself respond to this “touch”,a nd eagerly seek. Some do not.
'There are members of the Body of Christ who know nothing about Christianity.
It is not necessarliy to be in a community of belivers to belong to the One Church. It certainly is the normative and recommended method, but God can save whoever he wants, however he likes.,
Esdra
R
rinnie
Guest
Hi Esdra:wave: Let me introduce you to something that Jesus said
The VINE and the BRANCHES must stay attached to one another if the branches are to live and produce abundant fruit. Remain in me as I remain in you. John 15:4
The Church has common bonds that we share and it is defined in scripture.
The vine and the branches, The body of Christ, The good Shepherd and the Early Christian Community.
Sacraments are POWERS that come forth from the Body Of Christ which is ever-living and life-giving. They are the actions of the Holy Spriit at work in his body THE CHURCH.
Now when we become separated from the vine how are we to produce fruit?
The VINE and the BRANCHES must stay attached to one another if the branches are to live and produce abundant fruit. Remain in me as I remain in you. John 15:4
The Church has common bonds that we share and it is defined in scripture.
The vine and the branches, The body of Christ, The good Shepherd and the Early Christian Community.
Sacraments are POWERS that come forth from the Body Of Christ which is ever-living and life-giving. They are the actions of the Holy Spriit at work in his body THE CHURCH.
Now when we become separated from the vine how are we to produce fruit?
G
guanophore
Guest
Thanks Kath. It was a joy to read this excellent post.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
You are welcome, and I especially appreciate your experience and perspective and the work here.
M
minkymurph
Guest
Firstly, no I’m not sure, but I believe it’s possible.Are you sure that an atheist -even he is touched mystically by Christ (and normally you are not, if you are not searching, this means opening your heart for Jesus) - can become member in the Body of Christ? I have always thought that you have to go to a community of believers, a Church (no matter which denomination) to be part of the One Church.
Otherwise, well stated. I am really pleased to hear from a Catholic that he believes what I believe in this respect!
God bless you,
Esdra
Being an atheist does not in itself mean someone is not searching or not open to the Holy Spirit. I have had many a deep meaningful conversation with an atheists. I’ve had some pretty bad one’s as well but I have a certain affection for atheists for several reasons.
Firstly, religion has not helped it’s cause and we should not be surprised that many have lost faith in organized religion and doubt and skepticism are not the same thing as rejection of the leanings of the Holy Spirit. In addition, Jesus said if you cause someone else to loose faith you may as well have a millstone placed around your neck and be thrown into the sea. Therefore, the disbelief of others is something believers share a certain responsibility for, so let’s not be too hard on them.
There are of course mean-spirited people among atheists, as there are among believers. These I avoid.Secondly, my atheist friends have helped at my darkest times more than anyone else. A close friend of our family who is an atheist recently attended my eldest son’s first Holy Communion. Not because he believes, but because my son asked him to come an he is the closed thing my kids have to an uncle. His godparents refused to come. They were too busy. My atheist friend sends my kids Christmas and birthday presents. Their godparents don’t. I was admitted to hospital a few weeks ago with a perforated appendix. Who came to see me? Yes, you’ve guessed it, my atheist friend. The only other person was the Preist who gave me Holy Communion in hospital. It suppose you could say the only people I saw during my illness was Jesus and an atheist. God works in mysterious ways! :hypno:
I personally don’t think in terms of being a member of a Church as being in communion with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Jesus never said we had to attend a building called a Church or become a member of a Church in the sense one becomes a member of a golf club. He asked us to celebrate Holy Communion and eating and drinking from the same cup of salvation while professing the same faith makes us a faith community. This does not have to be done in a Church. Early Christians celebrated Holy Communion in the catecombs and some of them were martyred there for doing so. There was a time in Ireland were people celebrated Mass at Mass rocks in remote places, some of which still stand today, as celebrating Mass carried the death penalty.
I agree with you that God is not an individual experience and in order to enter fully into the life of Christ; we enter into a relationship with the faith community. Atheists may be people who are not ready to take this step. They are holding back from fully entering into the life of Christ and it is not possible to reach the fulfillment of faith in this life unless one fully enters into the life of Christ. However, as we cannot know if they have rejected God outright in their heart, it is possible that they are some mystical way in communion.
M
minkymurph
Guest
I have just gone back to your original questions Esdra. What makes all the Churches you mention above Catholic is they all profess the same creed; the Nicene Creed.
They differ in practice and culture, not belief.
Anglican’s have a belief in Real Presence. However, they believe the Eucharist is transformed by on consumation rather than by the Holy Spirit operating through the power of the priest. It is a concept know as consubstantiation. Luther believed this.
What makes the Roman Catholic Church Roman Catholic is the centre of administration. Other Catholic churches, eg: Eastern Churches, have their own administration centre. Rome is also the central teaching office of Roman Catholicism. Other Catholic Churches have different views on the role of the Pope in the Church and Papal authority. The Anglican Church does reject the view that the Pope has a unique role in guiding the Church, but differ from Roman Catholics in relation to what this means.
Churches that reject beliefs concerning the Pope’s unique role and profess a creed other than the Nicene creed are not Catholic.
You would find reading about sects withing Judaism interesting. They were all Jews in that they were born Jews and lived by the Torah. However, they had very differnent views on what being a Jew meant and how theTorah should be interpreted.
Some things never change!
E
Esdra
Guest
Yes, I had a very similar experience as a child. Looking back, I have to admit that I was never really “Catholic” in the sense that I never did understand the faith into which I was baptized, and never took it upon myself to learn. I also felt that I was not “getting enough” from the Catholic Church. I was spiritually and emotionally starving, even though I went to Mass every week.
That’s interesting. It seems that most people have such experiences with the Catholic Church. And then eventually some come back and are really happy to be Catholics, some go away to other denominations, and others become Atheists or Agnostics.
It is a good thing that you long to fellowship with people that have a heart of purity and strong desire to walk in the perfection of Christ.
Yeah, it’s really said that I didn’t found those people in the Catholic Church…
Ok. So long as you are aware that you definition is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.
Of course I am aware of that. I know that many things I am saying here and I believe in are not Catholic. Otherwise I would be a Catholic, wouldn’t I?
No, actually, it is not. This misconception is part of the rotton fruit from that misconception.Nothing in humanity is responsible for the formation of the Church. It is an act of grace, accomplished of God. Those who belong to it are not born of men, or of human will, but of the HS.
That’s good to hear.
This is probably the best evidence that you have been misled in your concept of the Church. In fact, as scripture states, the opposite is true. There is only ONE CHURCH. Jesus only founded one. The rest of the ecclesial communities do not qualify as churches, and are started by men.
Well, again, this is one of the points we will never agree on. I know that the ONE CHURCH in scripture is the community of believers. Nothing more. What I meant was there will never be a one, visible Church!
This is also a common modern misconception. There is a poster here on CAF who champions this view of the 'big tent chrisianit" and is always urging us to make compromises. HOwever, this is not the way of Christ. By the grace of God, the One Church he founded will remain, and He will unite all those who are His. Saying this cannot happen is an expression of disbelieve in His promises.
I have read his post and also commented it. I like his idea! And this is the only Chance that there might be once a united, visible Church. – A big tent Church where everyone can find his place. The people honouring Mary, those honouring saints and using icons and so on!
Esdra;6747079:
We do not reject any “parts of the body” or persons. What we are obligated to reject are the heresies that have been embraced by our separated brethren. You are a good example of how this has been done with the best of intentions. You are only seeking purity of faith and holy discipleship, yet you have been sucked into errors unwittingly.
But actually this is what I got to know! Saying that Anabaptists are sects (and all other Evangelical movements and denominations as well, well that even Lutherans are sects! Is this not rejecting for you? I think there are quite often in the Catholic Church major differences between what the official doctrine is and what people actually do. This is one of the reasons, as I have written previously, why I can’t go back to the Catholic Church. It is really sad that you don’t understand German; otherwise I would have directed you to the homepage of the Old Catholics united with Utrecht. This is what I would understand under Catholicism, if ever. (altkatholiken.at/)
E
Esdra
Guest
According to your own admission, you were poorly catechized. You also have embraced a great deal of misinformation. As a result, you conviction that the Catholic Church is not thte one founded by Christ is based upon a foundation of sand.
Well, seen from the Catholic, apostolic prospective, certainly! But I am aware of that!
I am sure about that (The Catholic Church wasn’t found by Christ). This is what I got to know from (secular) history!
In spite of the fact that you believe you got “nothing” from your Catholic faith, those of us that understand His grace see in your experience the grace of your baptism leading you into deeper discovery and yearning for HIm. Thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph!
Well, I am always ready to learn something new. But this doesn’t mean that I am considering going back to the Catholic Church! – If you think that. Actually I have learned really a lot about my (former) Catholic faith here. But this doesn’t mean that I think this is true. I know what I believe, as I have said before.
The HS does not lead someone in the opposite direction as He has led the Church for the last 2000 years.
Well, again to argue about with… If really the HS guided the Catholic Church, how then do you explain things like the burning of witches and heretics? The brutal and bloody prosecution of the first Protestants like the Katharer and so on? Yes, maybe He guided this Church. But certainly not always! I think this is comparable with the Jews in the OT. The LORD did guide them most of the time, but not always.
I am curious where you believe your bible came from, or why you would think it is appropriate to read it in isolation from the faith of those who wrote it?
Well, as I have said in some believes the Church was certainly guided by the Holy Spirit. Like in the bible issue, mentioned by you above and also the Nicene Creed.
Not everything is wrong in the Catholic Church. The term protestant also only means that you protest against parts of the doctrine and not at all of it! – So do I and I think most of my brothers and sisters in the evangelical Churches.
Keep studying. You will find out that what you have been given to believe about the CAtholic Church is not accurate.
Well, again – I am sure about that. I was even sure about that before I became Anabaptist. Actually I have hardly any things adopted from the Anabaptists so far (mainly bible teaching…; Consider: I am only since half a year Anabaptist now!), considering teaching. Most things I write here are MY thoughts influenced by my dad (who is quite reformatory in his approach, although he had studied Catholic theology!) – And by chance my thoughts about the matters I am writing about here overlap with the reformatory theology. Or is it by the grace of Jesus? By his Holy Spirit? For sure! There is no such thing like “chance”!
Many atrocities have been commited in the name of God. However, it is impossible to “force” anyone to become a Christian. It has to be done freely. People may have been forced to comply with oppression to save their lives, but that does not make them Christian.
You really think a whole empire accepted the Christian faith just like this – with free will? Boy (or Girl. Sorry, I don’t know if you are m or f! - Discurs: This is why I love the Russian language so much.
No, because we see 3000 converting just at Pentecost alone. However, people being forced to comply with authorities to survive is not the same as having a conversion of heart. No one can be “forced” into belief.
Actually I am sure this is what happened 312 AD and later!
Esdra;6747080:
I am sorry that you have been misinformed about the history of Chrisianity, Esdra. I hope you will hang here at CAF until you can get these misconceptions corrected.
Well, again and I will say it that often again as I need to
This is a common misrepresentation in the Anabaptist communities. I was taught this as well, and fell for it until I got deeper into history, and realized it is false.
I wasn’t taught that (see also above!). I found out for myself. A long time ago. – Even before I knew that there is something like Anabaptists! But it’s nice to hear that I found out the Anabaptist teaching upon this matter for on my own!
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Esdra
Guest
No, Esdra, there are no Catholic celebrations that are a “pagan cult”. If you are willing to learn the truth, you will find this out for yourself.
Why do you use present tense? Of course they aren’t pagan cults anymore!
Out of your own mouth you admit that you have been brainwashed from an unknown source. It is actually fairly common. Fortunately, it is curable with facts. There are many books written which fabricate things like this, and distort history. I think it is important for a serious student to read these, but it is also important not to stop there, but to read other factual accounts as well.
I read it (but forgot the source. It is quite a long time ago. You now, I have a marvellous memory!
Here you are suffering from more misiniformation. It is not possible for a “god” to become a saint! You are right, though, worshipping any but God alone is idolatry. It is also true that some people do practice idolatry.
I didn’t say that. You misunderstood me. I said that they gave the Saints functions like the pagan Gods had. So it would be easier for the pagans to accept Catholicism! For example: You pray to Saint Anthony of Padua if you have lost something. Or St. Francis of Assisi is the patron of the animals and so on. I am not really good at Saints. I was never interested though.
This lie is perhaps one of the most painful for those of us who love the Mother of God. Even though I am not sure what you mean by “decestor”, your statement is a blatant falsehood, because she has nothing to do with “mother deity”. Her status as Queen of Heaven emanates from her Divine Son being King of the universe.
Did you know that the term Queen of Heaven is to be found in the Old Testament? What was the Queen of Heaven there? You guessed it, a mother deity – Astarte to be precise (Again secular History!!)
I have meant descendant. Sorry, my mistake. You know, English isn’t my mother tongue, so I sometimes confuse words!
Have a look here:
Jeremiah 7:18:
; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me.”
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Esdra
Guest
Thank you that we can correspond. It is really intersting talking with you.No, Esdra, they did not. Muslims cannot “force” people to become Muslim either. They can force people into external compliance, but faith and convictions of the heart cannot be compelled.
Well, sort of they did. If they didn’t become Muslims they didn’t have the chance to become members of parliament or so.
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and it was not under the control of “Romans”. The Head of the Church is Christ, not the Roman Empire.
The first Catholic Church WAS Roman. At least when it became main religion in 312 AD!
I am glad that you have embraced the Truth as you can. One has to start somewhere! IT is better to have a limited version of the Truth than none at all!
Again an argue point. I am convinced that the Catholic Church is equally true than any other Church that accepts the Nicene Creed! The Catholic Church is not “more true”!
As I have pointed out, you are suffereing from a deficient understanding of the nature of “church”. When you say the Creed, you are not embracing the concept of “Church” that the people had who wrote it.
How do you know how they meant it? And don’t tell me now Sacred Tradition! Maybe they meant it just the way I and most of my fellow protestant brothers and sisters do?!
No, but how can you know what is authentic, and what is not?
The Holy Spirit revealed to me in my long search for the truth everything that is true (as well as to most of my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Churches) from the Catholic Church.
Catholicism is not a denomination. Denominations are defined by those who broke away from Catholicism. All of them are defined by which parts of the Catholic faith they reject. That is what it means to “de-nominate”. To take ones name and identity from sometihng else.
Denomination = in German *Konfession *as far as I know. And in German it is used for the Catholic Church as well. Maybe the German and English words don’t exactly overlap that could be. My mother tongue isn’t English, as I have already mentioned!
Jesus founded a visible, One True Church. As long as you deny this, you are denying the Truth of the Scriptures, as well as that Nicene Creed you claim to accept.
I don’t believe that Jesus found anything (he even didn’t write anything down!). The apostles maybe did, Peter and Paul and the others. And this Church I call Ancient Christians – and they were NOT CATHOLIC in our sense.
I don’t deny the Truth of the Scriptures (on the contrary: Sola scriptura!!), nor do I deny the Nicene Creed.
God bless you,
Esdra
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