There is more than one Catholic Church - How is this possible?

[guanophore]

Have you read my post or not? It doesn't seem so to me.

Were are the differences in the Churches I grouped together, tell me!

He did. It is in the post above the one that has this query!

Well, what about the 21st century?

What about it? What makes you think that your lifetime warrants a departure from the Apostolic faith? Who are you, that the Church founded by Christ should abandon that which was committed to her ,to accomodate your fantasies? Have you any idea how much hubris that requires?

Do you really think I am talking about the PAST?!

What you are demanding of the Church has been demanded in every generation. what is different about this one?

At least concerning celibacy (by the way that is not even biblical!)

Perhaps you could show how celibacy is not biblical? I would encourage you to use Jesus as an example.

and women ordination I would definetely go with the 21st century - well, simply going by the time.

This attitude is precisely why Jesus set up the teaching authority the way He did. It was to prevent the dilution of doctrine through modernism.

The Church does “go with the time”. The Magesterium has a duty to instruct the faithful of all ages in the doctrines of the faith. The doctrine, however, is not “adapted” to suit society. The doctrine is immutable (unchanging).

The role of women have changed... There is no patriarchy anymore like it was let's say 100 years ago. You see my point?

Yes, I see your point. However, you have once again come to a false conclusion based upon a false premise. The inability of the Church to ordain women has nothing to do with “patriarchy”.

I think this would be a BIG step towards Eucomeny!!

If this means “passing through the gates of hell” then I agree with you.

• and resulting maybe even in the reunification of the Churches to one “real body in Christ Jesus” - to one visible Church founded by Christ Jesus.

The only way reunification will occur is when those who have departed from the One Faith return to it. Watering it down is not the answer.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, since I left the CC 8 years ago, I don’t really care what they do down there in Rome.

If that were true, you would not be on this thread, making so many opinionated comments about “what they do down there in Rome”. You would not be at CAF. Be honest, you do care.

This is a good thing, because it means you have some qualms about walking away from something that you don’t understand, for reasons that you have never studied.

But this doesn’t mean that I don’t like to discuss with you.

People don’t discuss things they “don’t care about”.

This doesn't mean that I am willing to convert because all of a sudden I think everything the CC teaches is true and that it is indeed the Church founded by Christ Jesus.

No, it certainly would not happen “sudden”, but it is possible that, as you do learn that what you have been given to understand is erroneous, you may be more open to the possibility that you have left some things unexamined.

Tell me one (or more) reason what speaks against it!
Every Church except the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Churches (in communion with Rome) have the women ordination…

No, the Orthodox that are not in communion with Rome also received this from the Apostles, and have been faithful to it. The faith was committed “once for all” to the Church. We are not at liberty to make changes to “keep up with the times”.

 

[guanophore]

I agree, but keep in mind that he is young, inexperienced, and clearly influenced by a very opinionated and equally inexperienced father, in whose footsteps he is trying to walk. ie, consider the source!

 

[guanophore]

AND WHAT DOES this have to do with celibacy? If ever Paul states in this verse that it’s everybody’s free choice to live in celibacy or not…

I think you answered your own question. This is the Teaching of the Church. In addition, both Jesus and Paul were clear that celibacy is a gift, and that those who are called to it should accept the gift.

I AM NOT INTERESTED in leading the CC. I have already said that. I mean you all seem to be so concerned that I come back to the RCC. But I can’t. Because of several issues I have written here all over this forum!

Actually, that is exactly what youa re doing Esdra. You are playing pontiff, giving direction on how the Church should adapt to the times. If this is not leadership, what is?

Tell me one thing: Why should it  in the Bible (which was written 2000 years ago) that the role of women changed in the 21st century? :eek::confused:

Women and men are just the way God created them, and they have not changed. Men do not give birth to children, and women are not ordained as priests.

Women emancipated themselves - they can be found nearly everywhere now (even as construction workers or car mechanics!!) - only in Churches there are no (Catholic/Orthodox) priestesses to be seen. Tell me, why?

Because that is the way God made things.

This issue is in this case not biblical/theological, but sociological.

EXACTLY!!! One should not abandon what is biblical and theologically correct just to conform to society! You got it!

I mean, as nearly all of you know, I am not a woman. - But if I were, I would definitely be upset that only me can become (Catholic/Orhodox) priests - and maybe I would as well leave for a Chruch where women have equal rights.

Yes, it sounds like you have an endless supply of excuses for leaving the Church into which you were baptized.

 

[guanophore]

Well, I think my problem is that you are so absolute when you say something and everything I say is wrong… [not only you, rinnie, also most
others]

I think you are overexaggerating here Esdra. Not every individual comment made by a Catholic is absolutely “right”. It is only absolute when we are able to fully articulate the Teachings of the Church. In addition, not “everything” you say is wrong. When you state beliefs that are consistent with the Apostolic faith, you are right.

We are both right.

No, Esdra. That is not possible.

There is no "one and true Faith". - There are many.

If you really claim to be a bible Christian then it is a bit disingenuous of you to deny what Scripture says on this point, don’t you think?

I agree that there are many “faiths” in the sense of religions. However, there is only one that comes to us from Jesus through the Apostles.

We are all united by Christ Jesus and that we believe in Him.

Yes, we aer united by the fact that we believe in Him, but if you will be honest with yourself, you will recognize that all denominations have different beliefs about many things, and the unity leaves much to be desired. For example, the Apostles taught that we are united in Christ through baptism, because it regenerates our hearts and makes us members of one another.

Maybe I also don’t like the idea that you seem to reject everything I say. I have studied so hard to get to this knowledge of religion and finally I even found Jesus Christ on this journey… And now everything is false.

You are to be commended for your searching study,and hard work. I am sure none of it will go to waste. Not all of it is false, either. However, we would be remiss if we failed to inform you where your beliefs are inconsistent with the faith of the Apostles.

The Catholic Church is false (from mine and from the protestant view), I am false (fromyour and the Catholic view), everybody is false (that’s an exaggeration now…).

I am glad you realize this is an exaggeration.

Also, it is unwise of you to attempt to represent the “protestant view” on here. There are many Protestants here that do not think the Catholic Church is “false” like you do.

Do you get my dilemma?

Oh yes, absolutely.

Another reason why I went to the Anabaptists ('though I am not really sure what “my” Church is called in English - either Baptists or Anabaptists) is that the doctrine is much simpler: there is the Bible, well - and nothing else…

Wide and easy is the road to perdition. It may be dangerous to seek for what is simple.

Anyway, you are wrong that “there is the Bible and nothing else”. All bible churches have plenty of “else”. There is a great collection of extra biblical traditions included, beginning with the “simple” one that drew you. Nowhere in the Bible will you find “the Bible, and nothing else”. this is a tradition of men that was invented during the Reformation.

The CC is so much more difficult. That’s maybe the reason why most parents don’t want to catechise their kids proberly, because it is simply too much work [and btw.: try a teenage girl/boy to catechise. At least here inAustria. He will call you words and worse {okay, again an exaggeration}]…

Hmmm. I don’t think it is any more difficult to raise children to be good Christians than it is to raise them to be something else. I do agree that it is not the life of a lazy person. We are to work out our salvation wth fear and trembling. What do you mean by “more difficult”? I think anyone who tries to follow the Chrisitan life through the flesh, and not walking by the Spirit will find it “simply too much work”.

There are plenty of parents that don’t raise their kids properly. It has more to do with the irresponsiblity of the human person than it does the nature of faith.

 

[guanophore]

That’s exact the opposite what was taught me when I freshly came into the protestant range of Churches.
My spiritual mom, a pentecostal, told me that we are all guided by the HS because Jesus has commanded to ALL OF US to lead us (through His Word) to the fulness of truth (not only the apostles!)

My pastor told me that the HS will guide to “understand” and interpret the Holy Bible…

I agree with you on this point, Esdra. The HS is given to all the faithful, and His goal is to lead all of us into Truth. He illuminates our minds and hearts when we read the Holy Scriptures so that we can know Him and follow HIm better.

We are all commanded to study, to show ourselves approved. It is right and proper to do this study under the guidance of the HS. We are commended by the Church to read and pray the Scriptures, and to live them.

Where we differ is the role of the Church in all these activities. You see, the Apostles taught that the HS does not lead one person in a different direction than where He has already led the Church. When the HS wished to reveal something, He reveals it to the teaching authority appointed by Christ. We can have confidence that the leading we are getting as individuals is True when it is consistent with that Teaching Authority. Jesus put this in place to keep us safe, and preventing us from being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

Guan I hate to keep repeating myself but you are truly amazing for the time and studying you have done to learn the Teachings of the CC. Thank you so much. I hope some day to continue in my studys and will be able to come back so quick and accurate as you can.

You are a Credit to our faith! But I am doing as you told me awhile ago and continue to study the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church. So I know the time that you have invested.

I thank you for your support Rinnie. I was just reading a post above where Esdra said it was “simplier” to be a Protestant and that being a good Catholic was “too much work”. I can see the point. It is pretty much impossible for any one person to absorb 2000 years of family history! One could study their whole life and never absorb everything that has happened in the Catholic faith.

It does take effort to read the early fathers, the councils, the heresies, etc. I will agree that it is possible to be a good Catholic without ever doing this, but for a person like Esdra, such study is necessary. It was necessary for me too. I had an insatiable nagging to figure out WHY. I did not feel that I could formally join another denomination until I had clarity in myself about leaving Catholicism.

Obviously, the more I studied, the more I realized that there was no Church that had the fullness of Truth. The objections I had about the Catholic faith came from misunderstandings I had as a result of being poorly catechized, just like Esdra.

God used all my years of wandering among my separated brethren to grow me in faith. I am sure that He will do the same for Esdra, and all those who are sincerely seeking Truth. He will come to find that there are just as many "pharisees’ in every ecclesial community. Let us hold him and all such seekers in our prayers.

 

[Javl]

I thank you for your support Rinnie. I was just reading a post above where Esdra said it was “simplier” to be a Protestant and that being a good Catholic was “too much work”. I can see the point. It is pretty much impossible for any one person to absorb 2000 years of family history! One could study their whole life and never absorb everything that has happened in the Catholic faith.

It does take effort to read the early fathers, the councils, the heresies, etc. I will agree that it is possible to be a good Catholic without ever doing this, but for a person like Esdra, such study is necessary. It was necessary for me too. I had an insatiable nagging to figure out WHY. I did not feel that I could formally join another denomination until I had clarity in myself about leaving Catholicism.

Obviously, the more I studied, the more I realized that there was no Church that had the fullness of Truth. The objections I had about the Catholic faith came from misunderstandings I had as a result of being poorly catechized, just like Esdra.

God used all my years of wandering among my separated brethren to grow me in faith. I am sure that He will do the same for Esdra, and all those who are sincerely seeking Truth. He will come to find that there are just as many "pharisees’ in every ecclesial community. Let us hold him and all such seekers in our prayers.

Guanophore:
I second rinnie’s assessment. I thank and praise God for you. I pray the Holy Spirit to continue in His gift of knowledge and wisdom to you.

God Bless you in all your endeavors.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiac

 

[Esdra]

[SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Then ask you Pastor for Me Esdra to explain this scripture.

Acts 15:7 My brothers you are well AWARE that from early days GOD made his CHOICE among you that through MY MOUTH the Gentiles would hear the word of the Gospel and Believe.

Who are you going to listen to Esdra? IF God wanted us to hear the word without the Apostles was Peter lying?

Even I can ask you this question.
Peter refers to ALL believers, not only the Apostles.
This is the main difference I think between Catholicms and Evangelicalism!
Nearly everything written in the bible refers not only to the Apostles but to ALL BELIEVERS.
This is also, btw, what I found out for myself even long before I knew that there is something like an Evangelical Church.
And this is also the reason why I never stopped reading the bible. The hierarchical System of the CC always has annoyed me. And I knew instinctively (or because Jesus had guided me? I know He loves me very much).

Greetings from the recovered
Esdra

 

[guanophore]

Even I can ask you this question. :)

Peter refers to ALL believers, not only the Apostles.

It is interesting that everyone who was standing there did not interpret it this way, and that they taught their disciples differently, and so it was until the Reformation in the 1600’s, when men felt it necessary to separate from the Apostolic Succession.

This is the main difference I think between Catholicms and Evangelicalism!

I think you are right. Catholics understand scripture in the light of what those who wrote it believed and taught, while evangelicals jettison that faith, and interpret it according to doctrines invented a millenia and a half later.

Nearly everything written in the bible refers not only to the Apostles but to ALL BELIEVERS.

Just because it is written FOR you, does not mean it is ABOUT you.

This is also, btw, what I found out for myself even long before I knew that there is something like an Evangelical Church.

Yes. Poor catechesis often results in people falling into error, by themselves, or in the company of others. It is regrettable.

And this is also the reason why I never stopped reading the bible. The hierarchical System of the CC always has annoyed me. And I knew instinctively (or because Jesus had guided me? I know He loves me very much).

Why would the authority appointed by Christ “annoy” you? Why do you think your ideas of how the Church should be structured are more valuable than His?

 

[Esdra]

It is interesting that everyone who was standing there did not interpret it this way, and that they taught their disciples differently, and so it was until the Reformation in the 1600’s, when men felt it necessary to separate from the Apostolic Succession.

Do you really know what they thought or did? Hey, it’s 2000 years ago! We have practically nothing from the Ancient Christians except the Bible…
I can understant the prostestants that they interpret the Bible not like the Catholic Chuch. This means how they (the Catholics) think the Early Christians did…
For me even the command to evangelize is not only for the Apostles but for ALL believers in Christ Jesus. Well, in fact, all what Jesus had said to the twelve is also meant for every other believer (remember: the Apostles were the first “Christians”.). This is also true for the 21th century. We are all disciples of Christ. We should live a Holy Life (and what is most important for me: We are all “priests”.) Do you really think when they, the first Christians, lived together, they had a hierarchy? I would say they have lived like the Amish or like in the Bruderhofs of the Hutterites… This is the “one, true Church” for me. (The second best choice is where I am in a Freechurch (Freikirche). Because it’s hard to live in “Christian Communism” in the 21th century.)

I think you are right. Catholics understand scripture in the light of what those who wrote it believed and taught, while evangelicals jettison that faith, and interpret it according to doctrines invented a millenia and a half later.

I would say: noone knows what they blieved and understood 2000 years ago. There are no records parallel to the NT…

Just because it is written FOR you, does not mean it is ABOUT you.

No, it’s of course not about me. But everything Jesus has taught the apostles and had said to them is FOR me as well. We are all “apostles” of Christ, if you want so.

Yes. Poor catechesis often results in people falling into error, by themselves, or in the company of others. It is regrettable.

I would dare to say that they find the truth as soon as they rise their head and don’t follow the “wrong pastors” anymore but start searching for themselves. (Okay, this is extremely anti-Catholic…)
Why do you think did the Catholic Church start prosecuting these “heresies” as you keep calling all protestants, so brutally? So many reformatore were killed. Many people were chased out of their homes and had to move (in most of the cases to the US).
Do you know secular history about the reformation? Do you really think that was okay?
They couldn’t prevent it anyway. We have “30.000+ protestants denominations” as some people keep claiming here (however, there are FAR less!), haven’t we?

Why would the authority appointed by Christ “annoy” you? Why do you think your ideas of how the Church should be structured are more valuable than His?

I am not convinced and never was that this was really Jesus’ plan. The thing with authority…
I start believing more and more that the Ancient Christian Communities were far more similar to most “fundamentlist, evangelical, fanatic” protestants than to the present Catholic Church.
I have always known that - well, as I have written before, long before I even knew that there are Anabaptists, Baptists etc. who share basically the same believes I have found out for myself.

I need to clarify one other point:
There is a missunderstanding going on between you, guanophore and me:
I have never said that the faithful Catholics who stick to the doctrine and are catechised (this is also true for most Charismatic Catholics) are “mentally ill”.
I said that they are regarded to be so and what’s more fundamentalists and fanatics and bigots by the “unfaithful” Catholics (including the “cafe-Catholics”)!
For me they are true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. They have, just as all Christians, part of the truth. Remember? - there is no “fullness of truth”.
The Catholics are not more right but also not less right then any other Christian (who is not in a sect. - I think I have already clarified what a sect is, right?)
We all worship the same God. We all love Jesus. And if you are a faithful Christian (no matter which denomination/Church) you will also try your best to live a “Christian life”, to keep His commandments. And my opinion these are the main points what Jesus wants us to do on this world:
Love Him (God)
To love our neighbor.
To believe in Him, Christ Jesus, who has saved us from our sins.
and to stick to His commandments (the 10 of the OT) and those of Jesus in the NT.
We can be so glad that we don’t have a picky god. God is not like Humans. For God it is not at all important which Christian Church you attend!
Amen. Alleluja!

Esdra

Esdra

 

[guanophore]

Do you really know what they thought or did?

Yes, we really do. And you will really know this too as you continue to study the Scritptures and the history of the Church.

Hey, it’s 2000 years ago! We have practically nothing from the Ancient Christians except the Bible…

YOU have “practically nothing” because you either have not found it yet, or having found it, have rejected what is there. That is why I said your study of history has been incomplete, and biased.

I can understant the prostestants that they interpret the Bible not like the Catholic Chuch. This means how they (the Catholics) think the Early Christians did…

I am having a little trouble following your line of thought here. But Catholics do interpret scripture according to the faith of the early church. The Reformers separated from that faith, so they interpret it according to the doctrines they invented in the 1600’s

For me even the command to evangelize is not only for the Apostles but for ALL believers in Christ Jesus. Well, in fact, all what Jesus had said to the twelve is also meant for every other believer (remember: the Apostles were the first “Christians”.).

Yes, we are all called to evangelize. And you are right, what is recorded that Jesus said to the 12 is for all of us, but that does not mean it is ABOUT all of us. Jesus authorized the Apostles in a way that you are not authorized.

This is also true for the 21th century. We are all disciples of Christ. We should live a Holy Life (and what is most important for me: We are all “priests”.)

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Do you really think when they, the first Christians, lived together, they had a hierarchy?

Yes. This quite clear in the NT, and in the history of the Church, and the writings of the early Fathers.

I would say they have lived like the Amish or like in the Bruderhofs of the Hutterites… This is the “one, true Church” for me. (The second best choice is where I am in a Freechurch (Freikirche). Because it’s hard to live in “Christian Communism” in the 21th century.)

Yes. Clearly there was a communal lifestyle. THis is not incompatible with authority.

I would say: noone knows what they blieved and understood 2000 years ago. There are no records parallel to the NT…

If you do not wish to know, then you can reject what is written and preserved. Maybe you need to do this in order to justify becoming Reformed? Most Reformed Christians ignore the history of the Church.

You are right, Scripture is on a level by itself, and there are no writings that are parallel to it. that does not mean there are not accurate historical accounts of what the early church beleved, taught, and practiced.

No, it’s of course not about me. But everything Jesus has taught the apostles and had said to them is FOR me as well. We are all “apostles” of Christ, if you want so.

You seem to be suffering from an authority problem. It is good, though, that you are willing to apply the words of the NT to your own life, even if you are out of order at times, your intention is good.

I would dare to say that they find the truth as soon as they rise their head and don’t follow the “wrong pastors” anymore but start searching for themselves. (Okay, this is extremely anti-Catholic…)

At least you recognize it in yourself.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you think did the Catholic Church start prosecuting these “heresies” as you keep calling all protestants, so brutally? So many reformatore were killed. Many people were chased out of their homes and had to move (in most of the cases to the US).

You have a lot more to learn about history. The Church is the HOly and pure bride of Christ. It is not possible for her to persecute anyone.

Do you know secular history about the reformation? Do you really think that was okay?

I have read a lot of history about the Reformation, both religious and secular. YOu are suffering under a misapprehension that the “secular” history you were given to believe is unbiased,but it was not.

They couldn’t prevent it anyway. We have “30.000+ protestants denominations” as some people keep claiming here (however, there are FAR less!), haven’t we?

You are right. It was not preventable. It is the duty of the Church to guard the faithful,a nd prevent apostasy. However, despite her best efforts, apostasy will happen.

I am not convinced and never was that this was really Jesus’ plan. The thing with authority…

That much is clear. You are suffering from some severe authority problems.

I start believing more and more that the Ancient Christian Communities were far more similar to most “fundamentlist, evangelical, fanatic” protestants than to the present Catholic Church.

All those that avoid reading the history of the Church tend to fall into this.

I have always known that - well, as I have written before, long before I even knew that there are Anabaptists, Baptists etc. who share basically the same believes I have found out for myself.

When one separates from the Apostolic faith preserved infallibly in the Church by the HS, one is prone to falling into error, by oneself, or along with others.

There is a missunderstanding going on between you, guanophore and me:
I have never said that the faithful Catholics who stick to the doctrine and are catechised (this is also true for most Charismatic Catholics) are “mentally ill”.
I said that they are regarded to be so

I understood that this is what you were saying. That is why I was teasing you about not wanting to be regarded as mentally ill if you became a fully catechized Catholic.

For me they are true brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. They have, just as all Christians, part of the truth. Remember? - there is no “fullness of truth”.
The Catholics are not more right but also not less right then any other Christian (who is not in a sect. - I think I have already clarified what a sect is, right?)

Ok, well, this is mighty generous of you. However, you are in error about Truth. There is fullness of Truth, and it is found in the catholic faith. You have not found it there because you have not searched. You were disgusted by the hypocrisy of those who do not practice the faith.

We all worship the same God. We all love Jesus. And if you are a faithful Christian (no matter which denomination/Church) you will also try your best to live a “Christian life”, to keep His commandments.

I agree with you, except that Catholicism is not a denomination. All the other ecclesial communities define themselves by what part of the Catholic faith they reject.

We can be so glad that we don’t have a picky god. God is not like Humans. For God it is not at all important which Christian Church you attend!
Amen. Alleluja!

If this were true, Esdra, He would not have founded a Church. He would have left the Temple in place. If this were true, He would not have founded ONE CHURCH. If this were true, He would not have prayed the High Priestly Prayer for unity.

 

[Javl]

Esdra:

In reading your posts I see that you have much to learn, not only about Catholicism but Protestantism too. Please keep in mind that we are not here to proselytize you, but to dispell the mis-understandings, myths, and lies that you seem to know. You seem to be very biased in your “knowledge”. Read the Church Fathers and a religious and secular history about the Church. After a careful study open your heart and mind, without predjudice, to the Holy Spirit and pray for understanding and knowledge. He will give it to you. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

P.S. Did you know that Christianity ( the Catholic Church ) is the fullfillment and continuation of Judaism?

 

[rinnie]

Even I can ask you this question.
Peter refers to ALL believers, not only the Apostles.
This is the main difference I think between Catholicms and Evangelicalism!
Nearly everything written in the bible refers not only to the Apostles but to ALL BELIEVERS.
This is also, btw, what I found out for myself even long before I knew that there is something like an Evangelical Church.
And this is also the reason why I never stopped reading the bible. The hierarchical System of the CC always has annoyed me. And I knew instinctively (or because Jesus had guided me? I know He loves me very much).

Greetings from the recovered
Esdra

Then answer my question Esdra. Who said that Peter was only talking to the other Apostles and not all of us when he said Jesus made his choice that it would be through my mouth. What does that have to do with the authority given to Peter and the rest of the APostles. Who cares who is was talkling to, I thought we were concerned with WHAT he was talking about.

Who ever said that God’s word was not for all belivers? Not I. I said that the bible said that we are all given different gifts from God And God did not give us all AUTHORITY to do ALL things. You are the one who said he did.

So can you show me where the scripture is that God breathed the Holy Spriit into you, and you were given the power of the Holy Spirit by the successors of the Apostles to receive these gifts. That’s all I asked. Where you received authority in Holy Orders the way the other Priests etc did.

The sacrament of penance is clearly in use for Irenaeus speaks of making an outward confession.

Later writers such as Origen (241) Cyprian (251) and Aphrates (337) are clear in saying that confession to to be made to a Priest. Cyprian writes that confession an only take place through the Priests.

Ambrose says this right is given to Priests only.

Pope Leo I says absolution can be obtained ONLY through the Prayers of the Priests.

This is all taken not as a novel but as reminders of accepted belief. There is absolutely NO Record of ANYONE OBECTING of this practice.

Now do you expect you to have anyone turn from the Early teachers of the Church and take your word for it, when the bible itself DEMANDS that we go by the early teachers of the church?.

So why are you changing around what I said now to fit what you want it to say? Kinda of like what you are doing to scripture now Yes

I said that Jesus did not give us all Authority. I never said Jesus did not speak to us all through the gospel. But I guess I can agree with you are one thing now that I think about it. NEARLY all things Jesus did say was meant for all belivers. NEARLY Not all though.

Jesus did not change everyones name to Peter. Not even ALL of the APostles. Only Simons name did he change to Peter.

Jesus did not give ALL of the APostles the keys to the kingdom Only SIMON.

But Jesus did give ALL of the Apostles the power of the Holy Spirit to bind and loose. But he did not give that to all of the belivers though.

Jesus did want us to all spread his truth though, I will give you that. And a little surprise IF in A STATE OF EMERGENCY and Guan, correct me on this is I am wrong. But I believe that if someone is ready for death we can Baptise them in the name of God and give them last rites if a Priest is not present. Is that not true?

 

[Javl]

Quoted by rinnie:
Jesus did want us to all spread his truth though, I will give you that. And a little surprise IF in A STATE OF EMERGENCY and Guan, correct me on this is I am wrong. But I believe that if someone is ready for death we can Baptise them in the name of God and give them last rites if a Priest is not present. Is that not true?

We can all baptize, but the Last Rites can only be given by a priest. We can only pray for the person. If the person is in danger of death but conscious, then a perfect Act of Contrition may and can forgive sins.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

We can all baptize, but the Last Rites can only be given by a priest. We can only pray for the person. If the person is in danger of death but conscious, then a perfect Act of Contrition may and can forgive sins.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thanks Javl. I coudn’t remember and look it up, and you are exactly right:thumbsup:

 

[minkymurph]

We can all baptize, but the Last Rites can only be given by a priest. We can only pray for the person. If the person is in danger of death but conscious, then a perfect Act of Contrition may and can forgive sins.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

As far as I know, even someone who is not baptised can baptise someone else.

I’ve just been reading in Lumen Gentium that deacons can give the Viaticum. I also think women can be deacons but I stand to be corrected.

 

[Javl]

As far as I know, even someone who is not baptised can baptise someone else.

I’ve just been reading in Lumen Gentium that deacons can give the Viaticum. I also think women can be deacons but I stand to be corrected.

You’re correct as far as baptism goes. As for women being Deacons, I haven’t read anything in the canons that says so. Therefore I’ll assume that like the priesthood it’s not allowed. I also stand to be corrected.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[guanophore]

You’re correct as far as baptism goes. As for women being Deacons, I haven’t read anything in the canons that says so. Therefore I’ll assume that like the priesthood it’s not allowed. I also stand to be corrected.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You are both correct. The Church does not have the authority to bestow holy orders upon women.