There is No Comma( Purgatory Apologetics)

[Techno2000]

One you think you know every Apologetic stance you find out you don’t. I never heard this before till today

Protestants say their can be no Purgatory because of the Thief on the Cross.

New International Version
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

King James Version
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

Catholic New American
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Now of course we know how to answer this. But what did not occur to me today is that LUKE DID NOT USE COMMAS.

If he did why could it had not been" Amen I say to you today**, **you will be with me in Paradise"

Makes a difference huh. Excuse me if this old news but I have never considered this before.

I found this interersting

ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-08/0009.html

Much more interesting things at that link and the whole thread

Now this is from a non Catholic source but makes sense to me
The Comma of Luke 23:43

Did Jesus Christ tell the thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise that very day, or did he say on that day, that they would be together in Paradise? It has been argued that the Greek text is ambiguous on this point, and that the position of the comma (before or after the word “today”) determines the sense of Christ’s statement.

Of course, no one will doubt that commas were introduced into the manuscripts centuries after the authors of the New Testament books had died and that such commas are therefore not authoritative. And there is the question of context. No one can dispute the fact that Jesus and the criminal were dying on the cross, and that their death would be followed by a burial and, in Jesus’ case, by a resurrection from the dead three days later.

It has been argued that, since the context does not allow the conclusion that anyone entered Paradise on that day, and since the position of the comma lacks authority, the punctuation “Today you shall be with me in paradise” would leave the reader with a discrepancy between what had been promised and what actually happened. On the other hand, the alternative punctuation (“Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”) has been endorsed as free from such problems since it is not stated when they would be in Paradise.

The presupposition behind the two possibilities is in the claim that the Greek text is ambiguous without the comma. Thus, one is obligated to go deeper into the matter to ascertain if that presupposition is legitimate.

wcg.org/lit/prophecy/comma.htm

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX
Excerpt From:THE
DOLOROUS
(SORROWFUL)
PASSION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

FROM THE MEDITATIONS OF

ANNE CATHERINE EMMERICH

When Jesus entered in triumph the demons dispersed, crying out at the same time, ‘What is there between thee and us? What art thou come to do here? Wilt thou crucify us likewise?’ The angels hunted them away, having first chained them. The poor souls confined in this place had only a slight presentiment and vague idea of the presence of Jesus; but the moment he told them that it was he himself, they burst out into acclamations of joy, and welcomed him with hymns of rapture and delight. The soul of our Lord then wended its way to the right, towards that part which really constituted Limbo; and there he met the soul of the good thief which angels were carrying to Abraham’s bosom, as also that of the bad thief being dragged by demons into Hell. Our Lord addressed a few words to both, and then entered Abraham’s bosom, accompanied by numerous angels and holy souls, and also by those demons who had been chained and expelled from the compartment.

 

[kellie]

Is a Man that is literally minutes (or maybe hours) away from death going to stress that He is telling you something “Today”??? Remember, it was a struggle just to get up on his feet and relieve the fluid buildup in his lungs just to say the words.

I don’t think He’s going to waste time by saying, “Today, I’m telling you this…”.

That arguement seems to ignore the seriousness of Jesus’ agony.

I agree.

It also makes Jesus seem as if He liked talking for the sake of talking, which we know is not true.

It is the same argument I use when people argue that “upon this rock” meant Jesus not Peter.

Why would Jesus say “You are Peter”? Do people say that in normal conversation when talking to someone, make a deliberate point of telling the person they are conversing with what their name is? No.

Same as this comma argument. Why would Jesus waste His energy in telling someone that “today” He was talking.

When did the thief think He was talking? Yesterday? 3 years ago?

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

One you think you know every Apologetic stance you find out you don’t. I never heard this before till today

Protestants say their can be no Purgatory because of the Thief on the Cross.

New International Version
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

King James Version
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

Catholic New American
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Now of course we know how to answer this. But what did not occur to me today is that LUKE DID NOT USE COMMAS.

If he did why could it had not been" Amen I say to you today**, **you will be with me in Paradise"

Makes a difference huh. Excuse me if this old news but I have never considered this before.

A quick snippet from my page at theotokos.co.za/adventism/soulslp.html -

He said to the criminal next to him - “Truly, truly, I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Adventists and others will immediately jump in here to say that the punctuation here is in error. In the original Greek there was no punctuation, and it always had to be supplied by the translators. Thus, they tell us, this verse can also be translated like this: “Truly, truly, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.” If that is what Jesus is saying, then he is saying today that the person will be in paradise with him at some point in the future.

But can this verse really be translated this way, or is it a ploy to try to make us accept this false doctrine ?

If we take a concordance, and look up every instance where Jesus (or anyone) says “Truly, truly, I say unto you” or “Amen, Amen, I say unto you” or any of the various translations of this phrase, we will notice that in none of them do we ever find anyone saying, “Amen, Amen, I say unto you TODAY.” The expression is ALWAYS “Amen, amen, I say unto you, [and then the promise or statement of fact].” Go and look this up for yourself, and go and look up the phrase involved - you will notice that it does not have a time clause in it. Because of the definite consistency in the way this phrase is used, and especially the way in which Jesus uses this phrase, we can be 100% sure that the “today” in the statement in question must belong to the second part of the statement, the promise to the thief on the cross. It cannot belong to the “Amen, Amen” or “Truly, truly” clause because it is never used that way. We must accept the grammar of this verse, and accept that that very day, the theif was with Jesus in paradise.

 

[Nita]

“Today” is not limited to earthly time, but also can refer to the “today” of God:

Eg. from the CCC:
1165 When the Church celebrates the mystery of Christ, there is a word that marks her prayer: “Today!” - a word echoing the prayer her Lord taught her and the call of the Holy Spirit.(cf. Mt 6:11; Heb 3:7-4:11; Ps 95:7) This “today” of the living God which man is called to enter is “the hour” of Jesus’ Passover, which reaches across and underlies all history:

“Life extends over all beings and fills them with unlimited light; the Orient of orients pervades the universe, and he who was “before the daystar” and before the heavenly bodies, immortal and vast, the great Christ, shines over all beings more brightly than the sun. Therefore a day of long, eternal light is ushered in for us who believe in him, a day which is never blotted out: the mystical Passover.” (St. Hippolytus)

For other passages that speak of this “today”, see CCC #1095, 2606, 2705, 2836.

Nita

 

[Bishopite]

Is the Greek text ambiguous?

The first point to note is that Jesus was communicating with the thief verbally. In any language, people converse without commas, semicolons, question marks or exclamation marks. In fact, writers employ such devices only because they believe that the spoken message is clearer and want to approximate it. It is not true, therefore, that what Jesus said was ambiguous. The introduction of the commas into the manuscripts (centuries later) is irrelevant.

You make a great point. What many don’t know is that the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic can be read with a number of possible interpretations and sometimes with multiple senses of interpretation, (so who’s to choose which one is primary over the others?) and the words can sometimes have a multitude possible meanings. If this tells us anything about the written word of God only being inscripturated with anyone to draw from it what they deem to be its proper meaning, then if this proves anything, it’s that sola Scriptura isn’t actually functional nor the way God intended His Church to operate. Written words don’t convey true inflection, intitation nor emotion as does the spoken word; if anything this bolsters the Catholic position since it is by Scripture (and its proper arbiter) and sacred Tradition that we come to understand what the text actually means.
Here is a great example of a written text that can have a number of possible meanings. The “I never said you stole my money” can be interpreted five different ways:

1. “I never said you stole my money”
   Interpreted as, “Someone else said you stole money.”
2. “I never said you sole money”
   Interpreted as, “I thought and suspected you stole money, but I didn’t say it”
3. “I never said you stole money.”
   Interpreted as, “I said someone else stole money!”
4. “I never said you stole money.”
   Interpreted as, “I said you lost someone’s money or sqandered it.”
5. “I never said you stole money.”
   Interpreted as, “Maybe you stole his hat or his pig, but not his money!”
   whisperingangelsgift.com/AUTHORITY.html

 

[Nicene]

Lk 18:17 Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child shall not enter into it.

Lk 12:44 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

Lk 21:32: Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place.

Lk 4:24: And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his own country.

Jn 1:51 And he said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom

Jn 3:11 “Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.”

Jn 5:19 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

Jn 6:26 Jesus answered them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.”

Jn 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.”

Jn 6:47 “Amen, amen, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.”

Jn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jn 5:24 “Amen, amen, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

Jn 5:25 “Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”

Mk 10:29 Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel

Mk 11:23 Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him.

Mk 13:30. Amen, I say to you that this generation shall not pass until all these things be done.

This is an interesting one pertaining to the above discussion on purgatory:

Mt 5:25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
2626 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

It certainly isn’t hell he is speaking of here, because no one gets out of there, and it certainly isn’t heaven where you pay the last penny. So where is it? If it is taken literally then it’s a pretty dumb thing to preach in a sermon or even say. It pretty much goes without saying if literally taken that you serve out your sentence and pay what you owe. What about spiritually?

Mt 6:2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites 2 do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Anyway there are just a few of the ones in the gospel. It isn’t really a idiom so much as it is a courtly exposition akin to putting your hand on the bible today and saying this is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

In scripture, you’ll notice that the saying is always Amen, amen I say to you, or

Amen, I say to you,

The comma is in the right place on the cross with the thief. It wouldn’t be consistent with scripture or Christ’s utilization of the exposition with the comma placed after the* today*

Think in terms of the trinity and eternity, not in Jesus alone and in time. Remember the hypostatic union. In protestantism (in many modern circles) they have no problem dividing the trinity and hypostatic union, as can be seen by the My God, My God why hast though forsaken me citation as meaning God separated from Christ. That never happened, unless one wants to admit in pantheism or at the most crucial moment in history Christ stopped being God when only Gods sacrifice could atone for sins.

Hope it helps.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[NotWorthy]

Think in terms of the trinity and eternity, not in Jesus alone and in time. Remember the hypostatic union. In protestantism (in many modern circles) they have no problem dividing the trinity and hypostatic union, as can be seen by the My God, My God why hast though forsaken me citation as meaning God separated from Christ. That never happened, unless one wants to admit in pantheism or at the most crucial moment in history Christ stopped being God when only Gods sacrifice could atone for sins.

Now THAT is deep!!!:clapping:

I’ve thought along those lines for a long time, but I couldn’t produce the right words to say it the way you just did!

Thank you so much, Nicene!!!