There is no God

[tommyt_520]

Ok as far as telling me to read the thread to answere my question to prove God becuase you think you went over it. Right. EH…HE. You sure went over that one. You’ve got me sold.

Through science we have proven that the cause and effect cannot entirly be predicted. newton had already postulated this but the universe is constructed in such a manner that we cannot predict all effects. Uncertainty Principle is one of them. So sorry science will never be able to predict the course of the universe. There actually is a randomness in this universe. There will always be a use for science. Now I believe God created this universe with a logical and comprehensible infrastructure. We have laws and properties that can be observed, some predictable, some not. We are currently trying to devise an equation for the grand unified theory but are a very very long way from it. However, before the big bang…science cannot explain. Even Hawking admits it MUST be the work of a supernatural being.

 

[Strider]

TySixtus:

Perhaps. To claim that you as a Catholic have a truth that no one else has is just as egotistical. Physician, heal thyself.

I don’t claim to have a truth no one else has, I just claim to have it in a fulness no one else has.

TySixtus:

I already answered this question a few posts ago. In short, if you are going to claim that matter and life (everything) need a cause, but exempt god from that line of reasoning, you are guilty of special pleading. If everything needs a cause, fine. That includes your god. You’ve only succeded in moving the problem back one step. If the universe has always existed, it needs no cause…

Here’s your primary misunderstanding. By definition, an uncaused cause has no cause. Think for a moment. If everything needed a cause, nothing would exist. There has to be a starting point, a beginning, a something or someone to begin everything. Even the deists believed in a God who “wound up” the universe and let it run. For there to be a beginning to anything, there must be someone to begin it.
One of the characteristics of His that He is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. To assert otherwise would be to un-deify Him, because he is also Omnipotent. If He had a beginning, something or someone had to cause Him and therefore be superior to Him, and so on, and so on… Everything in the universe had a baginning except God.
This not special pleading, it is philosophy. Since God created matter, space and time, He is outside of space and time and not subject to the rules of space/time.
Please try to explain scientifically, not by pure fiat, just exactly how matter always existed.

TySixtus:

Oh I’m sorry. You merely reminded me that hell exists. Thanks. The petulance is refreshing.

Ty

There you go again, accusing me of threatening you with eternal damnation. Ever heard of purgatory?

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

Once again, you need to prove the existence of god before you can start spouting off his supposed attributes.

Ty

OK - I jumped the gun due to some other posts. Answer # 47

Is the Catholic Church the best one to know about God? If you won’t agree it is, which religion does it best in your mind?

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

Once again, you need to prove the existence of god before you can start spouting off his supposed attributes.

Ty

We don’t need proof of God to belive in him. God is not part of this world and is therefore not subject to any worldly tests.

Why is it that you don’t need proof that the universe has some kind of uncaused nature. How can you be so sure about this without the same level of proof that you demand that we have in our God?

 

[TySixtus]

Ahimsa:

In other words, that which makes your existence possible each split second, we can call that “god” also.

See, here’s what gets me about theists in general.

First, you posit attributes of your god. When these attributes are unable to hold water (all loving, for example) you move back a step. And then another, and another. Then you begin to posit attributes that are so vague as to be meaningless, such as :“that which sustains the universe at each moment”.

The universe requires no sustainment. I think people have no concept of what “universe” is. Do you understand that the Universe is everything that exists? Let that sink in for a minute. EVERYTHING that exists. In other words, existence itself.

Ty

 

[mikew262]

Ty, this may be none of our business and don’t answer if you don’t want too, but I’m curious. What was your family’s reaction to you declaring yourself an atheist, assuming you have told them? You said earlier, you were a practicing catholic, so I assume your family is also catholic.

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

See, here’s what gets me about theists in general.

First, you posit attributes of your god. When these attributes are unable to hold water (all loving, for example) you move back a step. And then another, and another. Then you begin to posit attributes that are so vague as to be meaningless, such as :“that which sustains the universe at each moment”.

The universe requires no sustainment. I think people have no concept of what “universe” is. Do you understand that the Universe is everything that exists? Let that sink in for a minute. EVERYTHING that exists. In other words, existence itself.

Ty

Your examples that attempt to somehow cast doubt on God being all loving show a narrow view of love. From your statement I believe that you think that the existence of evil disproves God also. God loves perfectly and is perfectly just. Many forget about the just part.

 

[steveandersen]

Strider:

…
Please try to explain scientifically, not by pure fiat, just exactly how matter always existed…

errrr …since there was no matter or time until the universe started then there has always been matter

how else?

Don’t confuse Ty’s statement about the universe always exisitng with the old steady state theory. They’re not the same thing.

 

[tommyt_520]

Oh brother you guys watched the Matrix one too many times. Shame on any Catholics here trying to explain to an atheist about the causes of Gods creation. Go read Job and pray the Rosary. Talking about science is one thing but you not even sticking to that. If a cause is an uncaused effect that causes the effected cause…you sound like idiots. An atheist thinks he is smart because he does not have the disciplin to follow are Catholic life. An atheist will just say sticks and stones and thats a weak answere. And thats what they are-weak. All of a sudden when a Catholic decides to become atheist they think they are Platos favorite student. So…whith that being said, here is to all atheists:

how much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a would chuck could chuck wood.

OH!!! please use big words and include “cause”, “effect”, and “I need to stop begging for attention as an atheist on a Catholic forum”

 

[TySixtus]

Verbum Caro:

Thanks for your response Ty, I’m glad you are still holding you head above the tidal wave of posts the have come your way.

Thank, for both your courtesy and kindness.

I’m sure that you are not positing any type of intentionality to this uncaused Universe – we are speaking only of “cause and effect” here, right? Such that all the causes we observe “in” the universe have some prior cause, which also has a prior cause, which always has a prior cause, until you get to the very existence of the Universe itself, which is itself the FIRST cause, or at least the very FIRST cause was “in” the universe, but not caused by something else. Am presenting you position fairly?

Nope. You had it right until the bolded part. The universe itself contains causality. You cannot apply it to the universe. It’s kind of like saying “before the big bang”. Time is a property of the universe, ergo there was no “before” the big bang.

Quantum Physics allows particles to appear without causation, so there is no reason to require the universe itself to require a cause.

Ty

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

God is true love?

So when he ordered Israelites to conquer nations and murder their babies, he was exhibiting true love? When he murdered the first born of Eqypt, or when he made a bet with Satan on how far he could push Job, or when he supposedly murdered the population of the world except for 8, or when he sent bears to murder 42 children for calling his prophet bald, or when he killed Ananias and Sapphira for not coughing up enough dough,* he was exhibiting true love*?

Are you kidding me? Do you even know what love is? Methinks perhaps you do not.

Ty

In order to understand these events you have to see them in a different light. That light is the New Testament. It is the message of Jesus Christ.

Christ changed our perception of God. He proved to us that God plays a part in our lives in a very personal way. He sets us free from sin and in the process frees us from the notion that God is vengeful.

The fact that God gave us his only son in love and in sacrifice is proof enough that God is our loving father. Jesus explains all of this. His message is in fact to love each other. Christ tells us to open our hearts to the truth and not our minds.

This is in fact what Christ teaches us about love.
Love is patient and kind, not jealous, not boastful,
not proud, rude or selfish, not easily angered,
and it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not gloat over other people’s sins
but takes its delight in the truth.
Love always bears up, always trusts,
always hopes, always endures.

We believe that God is pure love and that love touches us all on a very personal level.
In fact we are blessed not to know him with our eyes in this world. If we could prove his existence through worldly means we would not have a choice to follow him out of our own free will. We would never have the choice to reject his love.

Regardless you still haven’t proven that love doesn’t exist.

 

[TySixtus]

tommyt_520:

Through science we have proven that the cause and effect cannot entirly be predicted. newton had already postulated this but the universe is constructed in such a manner that we cannot predict all effects. Uncertainty Principle is one of them. So sorry science will never be able to predict the course of the universe. There actually is a randomness in this universe. There will always be a use for science. Now I believe God created this universe with a logical and comprehensible infrastructure. We have laws and properties that can be observed, some predictable, some not. We are currently trying to devise an equation for the grand unified theory but are a very very long way from it. However, before the big bang…science cannot explain. Even Hawking admits it MUST be the work of a supernatural being.

There was no before the big bang. Time is a property of the universe. If the universe hadn’t been in existence yet, time would’ve been non-existant as well.

Sorry, back to the drawing board with that one.

Ty

 

[Verbum_Caro]

TySixtus:

Quantum Physics allows particles to appear without causation, so there is no reason to require the universe itself to require a cause.

Ok, thanks Ty. And you are welcome, let me also thank you for your courtesy.

So, would it be fair to say then that, according to the position you have laid out, the universe is an “uncaused cause”?

VC

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

The universe requires no sustainment. I think people have no concept of what “universe” is. Do you understand that the Universe is everything that exists? Let that sink in for a minute. EVERYTHING that exists. In other words, existence itself.

Ty

I’m sorry, but again can you prove me that the universe IS everything that exists? How do you even know what everything is?

What I mean is, how are you so sure that the human mind perceives things the way things truly are.?

I just can’t believe in anything you say without proof. You haven’t proven anything yet.

 

[TySixtus]

Strider:

This not special pleading, it is philosophy. Since God created matter, space and time, He is outside of space and time and not subject to the rules of space/time.

This is the same thing I post WRT the universe. Space and Time are properties of the universe. Ergo, it is not subject to those rules, as the rules spring from it’s actions.

The rub? If that’s all you guys have to say about god, I wouldn’t be on this board. You then want to add all this other stuff (see “Christianity” for more details) and us rational people are forced to debunk it.

You aren’t deists. So stop acting like you are. You don’t just claim that god created the universe and that’s all. There’s a whole bunch of other stuff you guys throw on top.

Ty

 

[TySixtus]

buffalo:

Is the Catholic Church the best one to know about God? If you won’t agree it is, which religion does it best in your mind?

Well since I’m an atheist, I don’t believe god exists. Therefore, I think all religions are equally nonsensical.

Ty

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

There was no before the big bang. Time is a property of the universe. If the universe hadn’t been in existence yet, time would’ve been non-existant as well.

Sorry, back to the drawing board with that one.

Ty

We live in a 3 dimensional world, time, and are limited to 5 senses what we can observe about the universe.

How can anyone say confidently that all that is, is limited to these parameters?

But, one could conclude that we live inside this limited existence and cannot see outside of it.

 

[TySixtus]

tommyt_520:

OH!!! please use big words and include “cause”, “effect”, and “I need to stop begging for attention as an atheist on a Catholic forum”

First of all, your grammar and punctuation are horrible.

Secondly, if you don’t have anything to add to the discussion, please be quiet.

Ty

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

There was no before the big bang. Time is a property of the universe. If the universe hadn’t been in existence yet, time would’ve been non-existant as well.

Sorry, back to the drawing board with that one.

Ty

Time is simply a property of your perception. I mean, if you can’t fully explain the nature of the universe in every detail and from every possible perception (of which as humans is limited) then how can you make these claims?

How do you know that our perception of the universe can ever be valid? Furtheremore, why would you ever claim that perception is truth?

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

Well since I’m an atheist, I don’t believe god exists. Therefore, I think all religions are equally nonsensical.

Ty

Now how can you say that? There has to be one that you would say makes more sense than all the others. To flat out dis all of them denies the fundamental truths that they build on, reason. You don’t want to do that do you?