There is no God

[mikew262]

EnterTheBowser:

I’m curious about these former atheists - how many of them were angry at God, how many of them reconverted during a period of significant emotional stress, and how many of them were familiar with the arguments regarding atheism?

I suppose it could be for a variety of reasons. It might be as simple as they felt their life was empty and was missing something.

In reading within this forum, I’ve noticed numerous former atheists posting. I wish some would join in here. Maybe the only real way to get to an atheist is to hear from a former one. Something like “Hello? I’ve tried this atheist stuff, and it’s not the answer.”

 

[TySixtus]

mikew262:

In reading within this forum, I’ve noticed numerous former atheists posting. I wish some would join in here. Maybe the only real way to get to an atheist is to hear from a former one. Something like “Hello? I’ve tried this atheist stuff, and it’s not the answer.”

You act like atheism is a choice.

True belief in something is not a choice. I can no more force myself to believe in god than I can force myself to not love my daughter, or force myself to believe that I am the incarnation of Buddha.

Ty

 

[mikew262]

TySixtus:

You act like atheism is a choice.

True belief in something is not a choice. I can no more force myself to believe in god than I can force myself to not love my daughter, or force myself to believe that I am the incarnation of Buddha.

Ty

Cmon!! Sure it’s a choice, the wrong one IMO, but it’s a choice. God gave you free will to choose, and you chose 3 yrs ago to leave the church and start believing that God doesn’t exist.

I hope and pray you choose someday to come back.

 

[TySixtus]

mikew262:

Cmon!! Sure it’s a choice, the wrong one IMO, but it’s a choice. God gave you free will to choose, and you chose 3 yrs ago to leave the church and start believing that God doesn’t exist.

Wow. So you’re going to tell me how my beliefs came about, huh? This trancends arrogance.

I’m telling you that my atheism is not a choice. I have no choice but to believe the facts arrayed in front of me. I can lie to myself, sure. But I am forced to face the facts. God doesn’t exist.

And I’m glad I feel that way.

Ty

 

[Maranatha]

TySixtus:

Ah. So a couple dead babies is nothing in the face of “progress”. Gotcha.

And my arguments need work? What a horrible thing to say.

Ty

You’re still caught up on death being an ultimate end. If it is an ultimate end then I agree it’s a big deal. If it’s not an ultimate end then it’s not as big a deal - but still important.

 

[TySixtus]

Maranatha:

You’re still caught up on death being an ultimate end. If it is an ultimate end then I agree it’s a big deal. If it’s not an ultimate end then it’s not as big a deal - but still important.

So then when Spainairds smashed Native American babies against rocks to “save their souls”, it was okay, since they were heaven bound?

Your concept of the afterlife makes a mockery of human justice and morality. And you guys have the brass ones to call me immoral?

Ty

 

[Maranatha]

EnterTheBowser:

I’m curious about these former atheists - how many of them were angry at God, how many of them reconverted during a period of significant emotional stress, and how many of them were familiar with the arguments regarding atheism?

One former atheist who became an ardent Christian was C.S. Lewis. His work Mere Christianity is well though out and well written.

 

[Maranatha]

TySixtus:

So then when Spainairds smashed Native American babies against rocks to “save their souls”, it was okay, since they were heaven bound?

Your concept of the afterlife makes a mockery of human justice and morality. And you guys have the brass ones to call me immoral?

Ty

You are confusing unfortunate and bad events again. Smashing babies is a bad action not an unfortunate event.

I can’t judge the state of another’s soul including the babies or fetuses killed in holocausts.

I didn’t and no one should call you immoral simply because you are searching for truth and have decided to live the truth you have found. You may meet the Catholic Church’s criteria for salvation.

 

[TySixtus]

Maranatha:

I didn’t and no one should call you immoral simply because you are searching for truth and have decided to live the truth you have found. You may meet the Catholic Church’s criteria for salvation.

Fair enough. But in the last thread I partcipated in (Defending Hell) at least two posters assumed that, because I was an atheist, I was immoral. It didn’t sit well with me.

I’ve spent about 13 hours on this board today. I think it’s time I went to bed.

Goodnight, all.

Ty

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

Kev7, I appreciate the effort you are putting into your posts. Sincerely. But there are some problems here.

You claimed that you don’t know anything about god. I posted a list of things that you said that contradicted that statement. You didn’t even acknowledge that.

What you have to understand is that I’ve come to know God through faith and not proof.

When I say that I don’t “claim” to know anything about God I do so within the context of mans understanding.

I never said that I don’t understand the message of God. It is through his message (christ) that I understand what a man need to know about God.

A man can’t possible claim to understand God he can only claim to understand his message. It is from Christ that we can learn what we need to know about God.

t’s almost like you’re not even reading what I write. Then, you write another huge post telling me I can’t be sure of the nature of reality. This philosophy is false. If you’re telling me that I cannot be sure of the nature of the universe, you are committing a contradiction. Because your statement is a part of the universe, you could be wrong, and I could fathom the nature of the universe.

Do you see why this is nonsense? That’s like you saying that god is unknowable You posit traits that god supposedly has, then tell me that you don’t know anything about god.

I still stand by the fact that MAN can’t fathom the nature of the universe. How is that not a logical?

Is your statment that man can fathom the nature of the universe not just as limited as you claim that mine is?
After all is your statement not part of the universe? By your own words you have in fact contradicted yourself.

I maintain that man can’t fathom the nature of the universe. We can only have faith.

Your faith is put in the limited abilites of man. My faith is put in in the infinite wisdom and love of God.

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

You believe in stuff you can’t prove. This is irrational. I don’t require proof for everything. I require evidence for everything I believe.

I have said over and over again that if you can prove something you can’t believe in it! Do you not understand the concept of faith? I would submit to you that if you have proof of something or rather evidence you can’t believe in it.

Again, this is nonsensical. If you can’t make sense of the universe, how do you contend to understand anything contained in the universe? This is solipsism, plain and simple. And solipsism is a bankrupt philosophy.

To claim that man, the smart monkey, living on a tiny planet, circling an average sun, in the edge of an average sized galaxy, in a universe that he doesn’ understand, Can make sense of the nature of the universe and all that exists makes no sense at all.

I’ve also said we believe that God doesn’t exists with in the confines of this universe. He is not bound to it. We come to know God through our faith. You also can’t disprove anything that Jesus said to be false. Truth is truth.

Well then neither can yours! You’re wrong, of course. My perception is valid,

That is a huge leap of faith to say that man can fathom the true nature of reality. There is infact no proof of your claim.

Am I taking a huge leap of faith when I say there is no leprechauns?

No, but you are taking a huge leap of faith in science to say that there is no God.

who is to say that the Irish are wrong anyway?

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

Maranatha,

If it’s so painfully obvious, please provide verifiable proof of the supernatural.

Thanks.

Ty

Why do you continue to demand proof when you yourself haven’t provided any proof for your understanding of the universe

I’m still waiting for you to post the equation of the universe.

When you do let me know.

All I can say to you is if you want to understand God and prove that he exists then all you have to do is Listen to the truth of Christ. His words prove a truth that you can’t prove with science.

The worlds wisdom, mans wisdom, is foolishness.

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

So then when Spainairds smashed Native American babies against rocks to “save their souls”, it was okay, since they were heaven bound?

Your concept of the afterlife makes a mockery of human justice and morality. And you guys have the brass ones to call me immoral?

Ty

Those acts are clearly against the truth of Christ. Your understanding of our faith is based on historical acts from people who did not understand the truth of Christ.

Godless people are responsible for the greatest atrocities on the planet. When man puts his faith in himself the world suffers. Nazi Germany did just that.

 

[Kristina_P]

TySixtus:

Nope. This isn’t true. There’s plenty of dissention, both scientific and philosophical, in this area. I, for one, don’t believe this to be the case.

I respect your opinion, but your not believing that the universe has a cause and your earlier (and, to me, unconvincing) appeal to Ockham’s Razor do not constitute proof that God does not exist.

Let’s face it. Both sides have tried to prove their point for thousands of years. Both sides have failed. It’s a matter of faith, and whether or not you see my faith as irrational is quite irrelevant to me. Again, I respect your opinion, but so far, your argument has not led me to adopt it as my own.

 

[Kristina_P]

TySixtus:

You act like atheism is a choice.

True belief in something is not a choice. I can no more force myself to believe in god than I can force myself to not love my daughter, or force myself to believe that I am the incarnation of Buddha.

Ty

I will defend you on this one, although I think there is a tiny amount of choice involved in most beliefs, i.e., the “step of faith.” But, I know I get sick and tired of atheists and people of other religions who accuse me of choosing to believe in a God they find irrational or cruel or intolerant. For me, this is where the evidence of my life has led me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the evidence of your life has led you to atheism. I just hope that both of us keep our eyes open for new evidence.

 

[Kristina_P]

TySixtus:

Here we go. No, I didn’t suffer some huge tragedy that pushed me away from my religion. I didn’t have a death in the family, and I didn’t start playing Magic: The Gathering.

It was a position I came to after a lot of study and a lot of thought. 8 months out to sea will give a man opportunities like that.

Ty

LOL. Thanks for the Magic joke, although I think it might have worked better if this were an Evangelical forum.

 

[AnAtheist]

chb03c:

This is just sad. On top of that there is no proof to her claim. It is just “I believe it to be true and that is it.” Don’t people know there is more to faith then “I believe.”

:ehh:
That is exactly what “faith” is about. To believe something despite proof or lack of, evidence or lack of, or even logic.
As long as there are only facts, there is nothing to believe in. You have the facts, period. But the very essence of faith is to believe something without facts or even against some facts.

 

[Kristina_P]

That is exactly what “faith” is about. To believe something despite proof or lack of, evidence or lack of, or even logic.
As long as there are only facts, there is nothing to believe in. You have the facts, period. But the very essence of faith is to believe something without facts or even against some facts.
[/quote]

Your post made me reexamine the original essay. As a simple statement of faith, it works, although I still object to the oversimplified and insulting portrayal of those who do believe in God. I guess since it was presented as “apologetics practice,” I expected it to be an argument for atheism, rather than just a celebrity explaining that he is an atheist and how that affects his life.

 

[AnAtheist]

TySixtus:

Try this one: God is the Uncaused cause. Now disprove that, easily or not.

Again, this sentence is nonsense. There is no such thing as an uncaused cause. This is classic Catholic doublespeak. Are there square circles? Married bachelors?

I wouldn’t say that. An event A may be caused by another event B. Then B is the cause, A the effect. If there is no event C causing B, B is uncaused, yet it is still a cause itself.

The argument is unvalid on other levels. First, there is no a priori reason why everything must have a cause except an ultimate first one. In fact modern science suggests, uncuased events occur all the time (quantum fluctuations), which is of course open for debate.
Second, and much more important, even if the argument was true in every aspect, it still doesn’t proove a particular god. It only shows there must be a 1st uncaused cause. You simply call the ultimate first uncaused cause “God”. Then you make an equivocation with a particular god image (Father, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, whatever you like).
I can call a beer bottle “God”, that doesn’t proove anything.

 

[mlchance]

AnAtheist:

In fact modern science suggests, uncuased events occur all the time (quantum fluctuations), which is of course open for debate.

There is a big difference between saying an event is uncaused and the cause for an event isn’t known.

AnAtheist:

I can call a beer bottle “God”, that doesn’t proove anything.

It proves you’ve run out anything approaching a cogent argument.

– Mark L. Chance.