There is no God

[TySixtus]

estesbob:

You may have felt you dealt with it but you havent even come close. You posts come acroos not as an attempt to convince us but as an attempt to convince yourself. You dont seem to be doing a very good job of it…

This went right over your head, didn’t it? Take a breath.

I was telling this poster that his attempts to guess my and others motives has already been dealt with, inasmuch as other people have chimed in and said it’s rude, as well.

Ty

 

[AnAtheist]

Vir Dei:

The variable A does not equal God but rather equals his attributes, I understand, however, you are asserting that God is something that can be added to.

Have you read the ontological argument? This “adding” is hypothetical. Anselm does the same, he thinks about hypothetical “lesser” and “greater” gods, and then shows that the “greatest” god can only be an existing one.

 

[Vir_Dei]

AnAtheist:

Have you read the ontological argument? This “adding” is hypothetical. Anselm does the same, he thinks about hypothetical “lesser” and “greater” gods, and then shows that the “greatest” god can only be an existing one.

I’m sorry, I have not read it.

 

[kevb]

It might have already been mentioned here before…but I highly recommend “The Everlasting Man” by G.K. Chesterton to any atheist here. If you’re looking for a sophisticated case for the existance of God…you really can’t beat it. I started reading it recently and it’s blowing my mind…
I’d love to see an atheist’s review of this book. Maybe I’ll try to find one online.

 

[AnAtheist]

Vir Dei:

I’m sorry, I have not read it.

In short, from Wikipedia:

1. God is the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived. 2) The concept of God exists in human understanding.
2. God does not exist in reality (assumed in order to refute).
3. The concept of God existing in reality exists in human understanding.
4. If an entity exists in reality and in human understanding, this entity is greater than it would have been if it existed only in human understanding (a statement of existence as a perfection).
5. from 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 An entity can be conceived which is greater than God, the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived (logical self-contradiction).
6. Assumption 3 is wrong, therefore God exists in reality (assuming 1, 2, 4, and 5 are accepted as true).

The circular reasoning is hidden in #5, where existence is a feature of being “greater”. Thus anything+existence > anything. Thus anything greatest must exist by definition, if anything has any validity. Therefore this argument is not valid to make statements about the existence of anything.

 

[kev7]

How can an atheist claim to know about all possible forms of existance?

There is no logic known to man that can explain all forms of existance. There is no logic that can provethere is only one form of existance.

That is the problem that I have with people who make assertions regarding the nature of existance.

If you can’t first define existance and have proof of it then how can you even answer the question of God existance? How can even anwser the question of your own existance?

Proof of God is undefined. An undefined variable isn’t true or false.

We can only have faith in christ and belive that he is the all the proof we need. We have faith that his words are true dispite the fact that people of this world don’t want to listen. In fact if christ was born today man would kill him again.

This is why we have these atheists on this forum. They can’t accept the truth of Christ. It upsets them.

 

[mikew262]

TySixtus:

Hold on a minute, there, tiger.

Thus far, I’ve put up with being called immoral, blind, stupid, young and niave, ignorant, and your very own estesbob pointed out that people were a lot smarter than me.

In his list of “smart people” was Jesus. Jesus cursed a fig tree for not having figs: out of season. If anyone else were to do this, we would call them, at the very least, hasty. Tempermental, perhaps. But since estesbob was content on calling me stupid, well…

I came to this forum with a good attitude, respectful of everyone, if not every idea. What was I met with? Typical Christian charity: name calling, soul-damning, etc.

So pardon my defensiveness. It is warranted.

Ty

While throwing insults at you personally is wrong (which I myself have apologized for), again remember you are on a “Christian” forum, thus in the definite minority. We hold Jesus/God very dear to our hearts, again have a little respect. Actually, I’m surprised you weren’t suspended for that little remark.

 

[TySixtus]

kev7:

How can an atheist claim to know about all possible forms of existance?

You’ve repeated this over and over again.

What is a “form of existence”? Please define this, then we can argue over it.

This is why we have these atheists on this forum. They can’t accept the truth of Christ. It upsets them.

Are you guys scared of us? Are we making you think? Why do you want us to leave so bad? Why are you consistently attacking our motives?

Why are our motives even relevant, here? Why not just debate?

Ty

 

[AnAtheist]

kev7:

How can an atheist claim to know about all possible forms of existance?

Easy, for any human, not only atheist. We simply define, what existence in reality means.

If you can’t first define existance and have proof of it then how can you even answer the question of God existance?

I can. How about this definition: Something exists, if it is detectable by its interacting with other existing things.

As long, as God is undetectable, because he does not interact with the universe, he does not exist in reality. Or to phrase that less harsh: A godless universe cannot be distinguished from a universe, where God does not interact.

Proof of God is undefined. An undefined variable isn’t true or false.

God is undefined. Or redefined to match one’s own image of it. That’s the problem.

This is why we have these atheists on this forum. They can’t accept the truth of Christ. It upsets them.

I am chiefly upset about all the misconceptions people have about atheists.

 

[buffalo]

EnterTheBowser:

Two responses: although we might not be able to see air, we can certainly detect the stuff using our senses. I don’t get the analogy. Faith is not believing what you can’t see with your eyes; I think faith is believing something without or despite evidence.

This is the Catholic definition of faith:

MAN’S RESPONSE TO GOD

142 By his Revelation, "the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company."1 The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.3

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."27

…

What really got my attention was this part: By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.

 

[TySixtus]

mikew262:

While throwing insults at you personally is wrong (which I myself have apologized for), again remember you are on a “Christian” forum, thus in the definite minority.

So? Might makes right? You guys can talk to me however you want, because it’s “your” forum? If you guys want me to leave, by all means, say so. I’ll oblige you.

We hold Jesus/God very dear to our hearts, again have a little respect. Actually, I’m surprised you weren’t suspended for that little remark.

I respect every single person who has been civil with me as a matter of course.

I do not respect ideas as a matter of course. Ideas have to earn that respect.

Estesbob was the one who introduced the alleged intellegence of Jesus into this thread. Prior to him bringing it up, I hadn’t mentioned Jesus once. But since he decided to use the intellegence of Jesus as a particular attack against my arguments, he submitted the idea of Jesus’ intellegence to my rebuttal. If he wants to tell me that Jesus was smart, I’m going to argue with him.

If you don’t want me to pick on your savior, don’t introduce him into the conversation. You submit it as evidence, and I’m going to be critical of it; just like I do with every piece of evidence concerning anything, and just like you should be doing.

Ty

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

See, here we go again. Please, Buffalo, what truths have been uncovered in religion? And keep in mind, coincidence is not the game, here. If you are going to claim that truths have been revealed in religion, you need to show me that:

1. They actually sprung from the religion in question
2. They are verifiably true

Ty

Ty,

It will be very difficult to move forward with you if common sense and reason are not part of the discussion. There is so much truth in religionss it is silly to not acknowledge it.

Just so I am clear - Religions possess no (zero) truths?

 

[TySixtus]

buffalo:

Just so I am clear - Religions possess no (zero) truths?

I don’t understand what you mean by “truths”, and I’m not being pendantic.

Do you mean scientific truths? Philosophical truths? As far as I’m concerned, there aren’t too many “kinds” of truth.

Give me an example of a “truth” from your religion. We’ll determine if it’s indeed true, and also if it originates solely from your religion.

Ty

 

[estesbob]

buffalo:

Ty,

It will be very difficult to move forward with you if common sense and reason are not part of the discussion. There is so much truth in religionss it is silly to not acknowledge it.

Just so I am clear - Religions possess no (zero) truths?

You got it-and Jesus is stupid and if we spent 8 months at sea like Ty has we would realize this too!!!

 

[TySixtus]

estesbob:

You got it-and Jesus is stupid and if we spent 8 months at sea like Ty has we would realize this too!!!

Once again, you don’t disappoint to disappoint.

Ty

 

[kevb]

TySixtus:

Are you guys scared of us? Are we making you think? Why do you want us to leave so bad?

Ty

No one wants you to leave. Our way of thinking and your way of thinking are just apples and oranges. No one thinks you’re stupid, and Christians never claim to be the smartest people in the world. Meekness and gentleness are of greater value to us than genius. It’s through the heart, not the brain that God reveals Himself to us. Trying to prove or disprove God’s existance with logic is a waste of time. It’ll never happen. It’s the opposite of how He works. The more you get up inside your own head, the further away you become…

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

I don’t understand what you mean by “truths”, and I’m not being pendantic.

Do you mean scientific truths? Philosophical truths? As far as I’m concerned, there aren’t too many “kinds” of truth.

Give me an example of a “truth” from your religion. We’ll determine if it’s indeed true, and also if it originates solely from your religion.

Ty

What I mean is religions have a lot to say about the universe and existence. There is much accumulated knowledge philosophically and scientific (not necessarily emperical) that they profess.

The very fact that people have lived, observed and written down what they have observed for thousands of years (raw data) cannot be discounted.

Agree?

 

[TAB19]

TySixtus:

This is nonsense.

Am I required to provide proof that leprechauns don’t exist? No, of course not. Your god is no different. Give me some characteristics of your god and I’ll disprove them, and easily.

The standard default for any belief is “No”, until proven otherwise. You don’t believe in anyth

I’m as certain that there is no god of any kind as I’m as certain as I’m sitting in this chair, right now. After 24 years on this planet, 21 of them as a Roman Catholic altar boy, lector and Eucharistic Minister, and having seen no evidence whatsoever for the existence of the Catholic god (let alone any other generic type of god concept) I can safely and reasonably say that no god exists.

If it turns out I’m wrong, I can admit it. I’m just not convinced, yet, so my answer is “no”.

I mean, should I go around thinking that maybe Zeus exists, because his non-existence can never be proven? No one but the theist, when defending his particular religion, makes this claim.

You can’t prove the non-existence of anything. You maintain a lack of belief when sufficient evidence hasn’t been provided. You do this in almost every facet of your life, except your theology. Your theology gets a pass.

Ty

 

[TAB19]

24 years old with 6 year old. Did someone in the Church say something you didn’t like so you left and decided you don’t belive because you made a bad decision?

 

[mikew262]

24 years old with 6 year old. Did someone in the Church say something you didn’t like so you left and decided you don’t belive because you made a bad decision?

Be prepared for a scathing reply. Several of us have tried to analyze his reasons for leaving God and the church, and have been blasted for it.