There is no God

[Mijoy2]

Observation (mine):
Athiests, in debates such as this thread, seem more prone to angry responses then Thiests. Thiests seem more prone to frustration.

Thought(mine):
A conclusive answer to this debate will never come into being (with the possible exception of the 2nd coming of course) in any of our lifetimes.

What it boils down to is; athiests do not believe what has been revealed (Bible, tradition, history) as God’s revelation; thiests do. A more useful debate may be debating the revelation for what “truth” (forgive the word please) it posses.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Be prepared for a scathing reply. Several of us have tried to analyze his reasons for leaving God and the church, and have been blasted for it.

From reading this thread it appears his main reason was to draw attention to himself. After all why would one who proclaims to be an atheist go into a Catholic Forum to discuss it?. Thus far his posts have been the usual cut n paste “arguments” you run into all the time when dicsussing religion with an atheist. He has also seasoned his posts with the standard gratuitous slaps at Jesus(says he is stupid), God, the Catholic Church and the Bible.

His atheism does not seem to be very well thought out-i suspect as he matures he will come back to the Lord-who will,of course,welcome him with open arms.

 

[buffalo]

estesbob:

From reading this thread it appears his main reason was to draw attention to himself. After all why would one who proclaims to be an atheist go into a Catholic Forum to discuss it?. Thus far his posts have been the usual cut n paste “arguments” you run into all the time when dicsussing religion with an atheist. He has also seasoned his posts with the standard gratuitous slaps at Jesus(says he is stupid), God, the Catholic Church and the Bible.

His atheism does not seem to be very well thought out-i suspect as he matures he will come back to the Lord-who will,of course,welcome him with open arms.

Fellow posters - charity, charity and more charity. Be gentle with Ty. State your arguments and let him digest them. If he is genuine he will go back try to refute them. The excercise itself has possibilities.

 

[Mijoy2]

TySixtus:

This is nonsense.

Am I required to provide proof that leprechauns don’t exist? Ty

Well maybe if you were in a leprechaun forum you might.
Besides, what about Red Auerobach?

 

[TySixtus]

buffalo:

The very fact that people have lived, observed and written down what they have observed for thousands of years (raw data) cannot be discounted.

Agree?

Agree 100%. I think I see where you are headed with this, though.

Are you contending that, because a majority of people in the history of mankind have “been religious”, that “religion” is responsible for the things they have accomplished?

Ty

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

Agree 100%. I think I see where you are headed with this, though.

Are you contending that, because a majority of people in the history of mankind have “been religious”, that “religion” is responsible for the things they have accomplished?

Ty

Yes. They weren’t done in a vacuum. We are where we are because of what has gone before us.

 

[TySixtus]

24 years old with 6 year old. Did someone in the Church say something you didn’t like so you left and decided you don’t belive because you made a bad decision?

Kindly leave my daughter out of this.

I left the Church because it presents a view of reality that is nonsensical. I’ve explained this already. No, I didn’t have a tragedy in my life.

I am so sick of explaining this to you people. Do you not read?

Why are your argumentation skills so poor that you must resort to insinuating that my motives are other than what they are?

How about if, every time one of you guys disagreed with me, I said:

You are a Catholic because you’re stupid. You believe in god because you’re afraid to die, because you were brainwashed, and because you have no critical thinking ability.

Why does this pass for debate on this board? Are you all that intellectually bankrupt, that you need to insult me?

How is that you guys can say this stuff and maintain a veneer of Christian Charity?

Ty

 

[buffalo]

Suggested reading

Not just for Catholics: why the Catholic Church was the “indispensable builder” of Western civilization
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

     **by Thomas Woods, Jr.**

            Ask a college student today what he knows about the Catholic Church, and his answer might come down to one word: "corruption." But according to Thomas E. Woods, Jr., that one word should be "civilization." In *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, *Professor Woods shows how the Catholic Church has shaped our civilization to a far greater degree than most people -- Catholics included -- have been taught. "To be sure, most people recognize the influence of the Church in music, art, and architecture," writes Woods (author of the *New York Times* bestseller The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History). But her influence goes far beyond that. In fact, he reveals, the Church's imprint can be found on every major achievement and institution of the West -- from science and economics, to international law and "just war" theory, to the university system and organized charity.

 

[mikew262]

buffalo:

Fellow posters - charity, charity and more charity. Be gentle with Ty. State your arguments and let him digest them. If he is genuine he will go back try to refute them. The excercise itself has possibilities.

Agreed.

However, what were Ty’s real expections/motives here? Does he still have doubt about his real convictions, and he needed to test his arguments on us? Is he here to trying to make us look stupid and foolish by attempting to prove God doesn’t exist? Is he on an atheist recruiting mission?

Yes, some us of have been a little sarcastic and condesending. Wrong way to handle it, I admit. However, what did he really expect? He is here attempting (unsuccessfully) to challenge our faith. He should expect a little defensiveness on our part. I guarantee if we were attempting to post on an atheist site, the general response from them would be considerably worse. Talk about sarcastic and belittleing, boy oh boy!!

 

[kev7]

TySixtus:

You’ve repeated this over and over again.

What is a “form of existence”? Please define this, then we can argue over it.

I’m asking you to define it! And then provide proof for that definition that isn’t as transient as mans logic.

I submit that man can never fully understand all truths regarding the nature of his own existance.

To claim that all possible forms of existance are only that which you can perceive from the perspective of your own existance is usless.

1000 years ago it was rational according to mans logic that the world was flat. It is only therefore logical to conclude that man currently has a false understanding of his own existance.

Are you guys scared of us? Are we making you think? Why do you want us to leave so bad? Why are you consistently attacking our motives?

Why are our motives even relevant, here? Why not just debate?

No. In fact the more I read your posts I realize more and more that faith is the source of arugments. Atheism is infact just belive system that requires faith in mans abilties.

The problem is that I see no reason to have faith in mans abilites. Man has rationalized all manner of insanity.
Why should I put faith in that? Man proves him self wrong over and over again and never seems to learn his leasson.

For catholics, we belive that Christs wisdom is not of this world. we belive that the worlds wisdom is foolishness. After all look at the state of the world today. Look at the history of man. There is no reason to asume that mans wisdom is of any use.

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

Kindly leave my daughter out of this.

I left the Church because it presents a view of reality that is nonsensical. I’ve explained this already. No, I didn’t have a tragedy in my life.

I am so sick of explaining this to you people. Do you not read?

Why are your argumentation skills so poor that you must resort to insinuating that my motives are other than what they are?

How about if, every time one of you guys disagreed with me, I said:

You are a Catholic because you’re stupid. You believe in god because you’re afraid to die, because you were brainwashed, and because you have no critical thinking ability.

Why does this pass for debate on this board? Are you all that intellectually bankrupt, that you need to insult me?

How is that you guys can say this stuff and maintain a veneer of Christian Charity?

Ty

Ty,

Indulge me for a minute here. I submit there are a number of posters here that may have been where you have are. Myself, not to your degree, but certainly skeptical and looking for empirical evidence as a person fromed by science. It took a while but I expanded beyond this limitation.

Perhaps some psters are referring to this. Don’t take it personally. Sometimes it is hard to communicate those deep feelings with words alone.

 

[TySixtus]

buffalo:

Yes. They weren’t done in a vacuum. We are where we are because of what has gone before us.

So then I can equally ascribe these characteristics to humanity. After all, every human who has accompished everything has been human.

Or, I can attribute it to having 5 fingers. After all, almost all humans who have contributed to “truth” since the dawn of mankind has had five fingers.

You need to read up on correlation. Your argument is the fallacy of the Undistributed Middle.

1. All trespassers are shot, and someone was shot, therefore, someone was a trespasser.

Proof:

The middle term is ‘shot’. While ‘someone’ and ‘trespassers’ may share the property of being shot, it doesn’t follow that the someone in question was a trespasser; he may have been the victim of a mugging.

It also contains the Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

ii) I took EZ-No-Cold, and two days later, my cold
disappeared.

Proof:

• Show that the correlation is coincidental by showing that: (i)
  the effect would have occurred even if the cause did not
  occur, or (ii) that the effect was caused by something other
  than the suggested cause.

Your argument is invalid.

Ty

 

[Mijoy2]

TySixtus:

You are a Catholic because you’re stupid. You believe in god because you’re afraid to die, because you were brainwashed, and because you have no critical thinking ability.

Ty

The first, the third and the last may be true (about me). However, afraid of death doesn’t apply. Doesn’t the atheist believe we become nothing? As if we never were? Then what is to fear? Been there done that.

Christians believe because it makes sense to believe. Evidence supports it.

 

[mikew262]

TySixtus:

Kindly leave my daughter out of this.

I left the Church because it presents a view of reality that is nonsensical. I’ve explained this already. No, I didn’t have a tragedy in my life.

I am so sick of explaining this to you people. Do you not read?

Why are your argumentation skills so poor that you must resort to insinuating that my motives are other than what they are?

How about if, every time one of you guys disagreed with me, I said:

You are a Catholic because you’re stupid. You believe in god because you’re afraid to die, because you were brainwashed, and because you have no critical thinking ability.

Why does this pass for debate on this board? Are you all that intellectually bankrupt, that you need to insult me?

How is that you guys can say this stuff and maintain a veneer of Christian Charity?

Ty

TAB19, I told you. You got blasted.

 

[buffalo]

TySixtus:

So then I can equally ascribe these characteristics to humanity. After all, every human who has accompished everything has been human.

Or, I can attribute it to having 5 fingers. After all, almost all humans who have contributed to “truth” since the dawn of mankind has had five fingers.

You need to read up on correlation. Your argument is the fallacy of the Undistributed Middle.

It also contains the Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

Your argument is invalid.

Ty

Can we agree that humans have found truth and that all of them were human, had 5 fingers and some had religion too?

 

[TySixtus]

mikew262:

TAB19, I told you. You got blasted.

So then why in hell are you guys still doing it? Is it fun?

If an outside observer were to view this debate, who do you think would come across childish and condescending? The atheist, who presents rational arguments and asks for some proof?

Or the Christians, who are attempting to diagnose me over the internet, while skillfully avoiding the questions I have raised?

If there is a god, he’s probably ashamed of you guys. I would be.

Ty

 

[TAB19]

TySixtus:

Kindly leave my daughter out of this.

I left the Church because it presents a view of reality that is nonsensical. I’ve explained this already. No, I didn’t have a tragedy in my life.

I am so sick of explaining this to you people. Do you not read?

Why are your argumentation skills so poor that you must resort to insinuating that my motives are other than what they are?

How about if, every time one of you guys disagreed with me, I said:

You are a Catholic because you’re stupid. You believe in god because you’re afraid to die, because you were brainwashed, and because you have no critical thinking ability.

Why does this pass for debate on this board? Are you all that intellectually bankrupt, that you need to insult me?

How is that you guys can say this stuff and maintain a veneer of Christian Charity?

Ty

You take it as an insult to be asked a question? You are full insults including the greatest , which is to question God. You were the one who brought up your 6 year old daughter’s ability to be logical.

We are not afraid to die. We are living as He commands and will be rewarded in Heaven.

 

[TySixtus]

buffalo:

Can we agree that humans have found truth and that all of them were human, had 5 fingers and some had religion too?

Sure. You still need to provide some evidence as to religion being the source of that truth, and not a coincidence.

Or, if you want to claim that theology has been the source for truth, it is also the source for non-truth.

Your argument:

1. Most people are religious.
2. People produce truth.
3. Since people produce truth, and most people are religious, religion is directly responsible for introducing truth into our existence.

Fallacious as it is (as I’ve pointed out) I won’t argue with it. Instead, I’ll provide the logical extension of your proof.

1. Most people are religious
2. People produce falsehood.
3. Since people produce falsehood, and most people are religious, religion is directly responsible for introducing falsehood into our existence.

Do you agree with my proof? If not, why not?

Ty

 

[estesbob]

TAB19:

You take it as an insult to be asked a question? You are full insults including the greatest , which is to question God. You were the one who brought up your 6 year old daughter’s ability to be logical.

We are not afraid to die. We are living as He commands and will be rewarded in Heaven.

And rewarded on Earth. I am 53 years old and have seen God work many wonders in my life. If I am stupid to be Catholic it appears I am in good company as Ty says Jesus is stupid too.

 

[Ahimsa]

TySixtus:

If there is a god, he’s probably ashamed of you guys. I would be.

Ty

Ty,

Which of these are you denying?

(1) The reality of a realm of existence that is not currently measurable or detectable by modern science.

or

(2) The provability of such a realm of existence.