There is no natural law... so kindly DROP it

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AlanFromWichita said:
Hey! :newidea:

This is one of my all-time favorite songs and is near and dear to my heart. My late great father used to say “they teach you what to think, not how to think.”

Harry Chapin played two years in a row at our small (1100 students) engineering college in Terre Haute, IN, and Mom and Dad actually came to see him there because Dad had heard and loved the song “Cats in the Cradle” which made him cry. We had good seats in third row center because my fraternity brothers took turns standing in line and bought a whole group of seats. His favorite song of the show was “Flowers are Red” and after the concert he said now he sees why they turn up the volume so high at concerts because they need to in order to really hear and understand what he is saying.

So he went his death with three songs he decided meant that maybe “all rock and roll wan’t just a bunch of loud noise.” That would be Cats and Flowers, specifically (and other Chapin songs by proxy) and later, Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen. He thought it was really clever and operatic.

Alan
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You father sounded like a very good man. Everyone has their own gifts and talents and its difficult to ‘school’ every child as if they were fish! Your post just reminded me of the song. Health and happiness to you.
 
Flyingg said:
If natural law is written by God in all humans hearts, wouldn’t they all have same view on what morality is and what is right and wrong? Still they don’t.
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Yes, God’s moral law (God’s eternal law, natural law, and the law revealed in both the Old and New Testaments) are written in the hearts of all human beings because “God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:27); and, as a result, He has placed His moral standards in each individual. But since God has made mankind in His own image, He also has given each individual the dignity and gift of free choice. Atheists, by exercising this gift of free choice have chosen to deny the existence of God and therefore His moral absolutes, feeling that morality is nothing more than a person’s viewpoint or whatever kind of action any given culture may approve of as right and wrong.
 
shoe said:
Atheists, by exercising this gift of free choice have chosen to deny the existence of God and therefore His moral absolutes, feeling that morality is nothing more than a person’s viewpoint or whatever kind of action any given culture may approve of as right and wrong.
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Atheists aren’t the only ones who have essentially made that choice. I know plenty of professed “believers” who seem to have some real issues when it comes to morality. 😦
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Atheists aren’t the only ones who have essentially made that choice. I know plenty of professed “believers” who seem to have some real issues when it comes to morality. 😦
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I’ve met quite a few that participate regularly on these forums and have had the sad experience of being viciously attacked by them. 😦
 
LittleSoldier said:
Biology has not proven anything. Biology is subject to scientific method and the use of scientific method does not allow “proof.” There is *always *a possibility that the results obtained are due to chance. And there is a very real possibility that children learn while in the womb. Of course our brains are not "preformatted’ like the neural system of insects. They are preformatted as human brains are. You state that “it is our greatest strength that we are able to learn.” If it is our greatest strength why are you so sure that unborn children cannot learn? If they can learn they are not born with a clean slate. Or are you suggesting that the *tabula rasa * refers only to morality? They are not wild animals in human form. They are human beings with souls, created in the image of God. They may still have a “pre-wired” morality but are not able to access it.

Yes, it is very sad. Nothing has been shown to be false. We do not know if human beings are born with a “pre-wired” morality or not.

BTW, Jung is rolling over in his grave. I assume you know something about his theory of the collective unconscious?
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LittleSoldier, Biology Is Science of Living Cells, and is Dependant on Evidence, Facts Reasonably interpreted by The Scientific Method. It Verifies God’s Incredible Creations of Incredible Intelligence in Everything.
 
LittleSoldier said:
I’ve met quite a few that participate regularly on these forums and have had the sad experience of being viciously attacked by them. 😦
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That shows you’re thinking for yourself! You’re far from being the only one… 🙂
 
John_Russell_Jr said:
… fellow catholics and other believers : can i warn you not to play these hate games with atheists , as it will do no good , hate opens the door for satan to enter , love opens the door for god to enter , these atheists are unwittingly perhaps trying to get you to invite satan into the argument so they can really have the best chance of winning and destroying your faith , don’t play the game their evil ways , and perhaps the atheists can tell us all the many great and wonderful blessings we’ll get from atheism , but they can’t just focus on how they’ll free us from our delusion and superstitious deity , if atheism is so wonderful why are these atheists the most horrible nasty people i’ve seen in a long time ??? , can they explain please ??? , and then catholics and other believers can talk about the endless blessings and benefits of believing in god and the church , let us have a genuine comparison with full honesty and see which faith is truly the best : atheism or catholicism or your faith as the case may be dearest friends …

… may god bless and love you all 👍🙂 ,

… john …
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If I’m the most horrible person you have met in a long time you live a very sheltered life:shrug:
 
You said:
Why would they secretly approve of adultery, did their guilty consciences force them to keep it secret. You are again forgetting my original question. The society you must find must approve and love something bad as if it were something good.

Keeping adultery secret actually hurts your case as it betrays a guilty conscience, an acknowledgement of ‘bad’ not being ‘good’, or in other words proving the natural law.

Try again.
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The point is, we have as much reason to think that the Aztecs approved of human sacrifice as we do to believe that the Irish disapproved of adultery.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Angry
**
Its debatable whether or not religion actually makes anyone better.**

No, it’s not debatable. Though some religious people might not rise to the challenge.
And at the very least, it might keep them from deplorable evil.

And that fact that it often makes people worse appears undeniable.
Two good examples are the Aztecs and the modern day Taliban.

There are good religions and there are evil religions. You’ve perhaps noticed that evil tends to devour itself. The Aztecs are pretty much devoured. The Taliban are not exactly flourishing.

For four centuries European “intellectuals” have been jubilantly ringing the death knell for Christianity. But it is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and China. When the present madness for secularism subsides, I believe there will be the most amazing rebirth of Christianity world wide. 👍
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The Aztecs were not devoured by their own, they were crushed by Christians (specfically the Spanish) with superior technology.

As for your prediction, you could be right about Christianity.
Sometimes bad things happen:shrug:

No one can tell for certain what the future will hold.
 
AntalKalnoky said:
No, because the Catholic Church Reversed everything of the Roman Empire: (a) From selfishness to Selflessness: always Giving instead of Taking, (b) From Military Power to Prayer Power (c) from Roman great culture, failing in selfishness, to New Catholic Culture: Liturgy, Arts., Etc., Etc.
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Reversed everything, then why is the seat of the Papacy still in Rome?
Why is the Pope considered a monarch?
Why does your selfless leader live in a palace?

Even on a superficial level your assertion is obviously false:rolleyes:
 
Spock said:
They do it all the time. Harvey taught Fluffy (the name of my dragon) how to use his flames to cook the meat when they go on a picnic. An Fluffy takes Harvey of his back and they fly around. How lucky that they are both invisible, otherwise the pilots of the airplanes would be scared to death… 🙂
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How fortunate for the airline companies:D
 
babylonsfalling said:
I know…that’s what makes atheism such a joke, something which I suspect atheists themselves are very much aware of but loath to admit.
Is that why you’re such an angry atheist?
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No, but I do appreciate your attempt at humor;)

I am not angry at God, I have never met such a being and have no compelling (or convincing) reason to believe in the existence of such an entity. However I have had bad experiences with religious people, especially the Church Universal and Triumphant (relevant link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Universal_and_Triumphant).
 
You said:
That, once again, is not my fault. I put no limits on the society that could be chosen.
Angry Atheist decides he wants Ancient Aztecs, I tell him that will be very difficult, that he could try something easier - like a society with online census records. But no, no, no.
You are correct, though, that there is more argument than results. But, just think, if the natural law did not exist, then, then, you should now be beside yourselves with joy, pointing a quivering finger at almost any society on earth and saying, there, there, look, look, at the society that lacks, totally and completely, any conscience. And there too… …look… and there quick, …look… there…
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Is that an attempt at humor or logic?:rolleyes:
 
davidv said:
Where did you this idea?

False. Pope John Paul II lived in a simple appartment.

Unsupported conclusion based on faulty premises.
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Its not my idea, AntalKalnoky made the claim, I was illustrating how ridiculous it was.
 
There is a natural law for animals: the law of the jungle! We transcend that law because we are rational as well as social. Most animals don’t kill unnecessarily so why should we?
 
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