There is no natural law... so kindly DROP it

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  • religion doesn’t claim to be able to prove itself - SCIENCE DOES! - so we justified in holding science to the standard it sets for itself!
Science Proves Catholicism; The Catholic Church Began Science in the Western World in the 1500’s. Checked the Recent (15 years) Scientific Proven finding on where EVERYTHING: The Expanding Universe Came from? Search the 1920’s ***BIg Bang *Theory of Fr/Dr Georges Lemaitre, Belgian Scientist And Devouit Priest.
Try Common Sense on where all the Intelligence in The Universe came from, Including Yours and The Laws of Calculus. :hey_bud::hey_bud::onpatrol Christ, His Living Church, added The Most Important missing element: Morality, Honesty: Social Conscience: ** Always
helping Others, Not oneself.
 
Answered prayers are verifiable results but without faith you probably won’t ever have those results…so as long as you’re trying not to believe in God, you’ll lack the verifiable results which you claim don’t exist. I guess you could call it self-fulfilling denial:rolleyes:
👍👍😃
 
Only thing left for those Without a Case is to Question, and Avoid Our Questions, and** The** Obvious Answers. 👍 We love the discussions. Know Who began Western Higher Education, Philosophy? Catholic Seminaries in the 1100’s: expanded to Higher Education to secular Leaders: Padua, Cambridge, Paris, Bologna, Venice, then in the USA: Harvard, Princeton, etc., etc. (Protestant Seminaries)
 
I sense anger in these posts. And when there is anger, I doubt the arguement.
LOL. http://bestsmileys.com/lol/2.gif

I think I could have saved countless hours of stewing over writing posts if only I had just written what you just did. 😃

I am sooo behind in reading this thread, but frankly I don’t feel like I’m missing much. Most of it all sounds the same. :rolleyes:

Alan
 
Answered prayers are verifiable results but without faith you probably won’t ever have those results…
Overall the studies I’m familiar with that tried to test the impact that prayer had on recovering patients were inconclusive. That’s not to say that prayer doesn’t work (perhaps those in the study were not praying to the right god). Of the studies that had the most positive result the metrics being used were more subjective.There doesn’t seem to be an abundance of reliable information on the topic.
 
"What is natural law?

Natural law is the promulgation of the eternal moral law in all creation, especially in created persons, both in the nature of each created thing, and in the ordered relationship between created things. Moral goodness is inherent to, and understandable from, all Creation, especially created persons. The nature of created persons is more like the Nature of God than any other created thing. And so the natural law is most clearly perceived within the nature of created persons and within the proper relationships between created persons.

Saint Thomas Aquinas: “Augustine says (De Lib. Arb. i, 6) that ‘knowledge of the eternal law is imprinted on us.’ ” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 91, A. 2.)

Saint Thomas Aquinas: “The natural law is a participation in us of the eternal law….” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 96, A. 2.)

This imprinting of the eternal moral law upon human persons is inherent to human nature itself; it is not merely an addition to, or one aspect of, human nature. For all that God created is inherently good, and therefore all that God created is a reflection of God, who is Goodness itself. Human persons are said to be made in the image of God because free will and reason make created persons more like God than other created things. Thus the natural law is first and foremost found in human nature itself.

But the natural law is no different than the moral law, except that the natural law is the means by which we know the moral law. Therefore, the natural law is the promulgation of the moral law, so that this eternal moral law may be known naturally by created persons."…

Excerpted from entire commentary here, read more: ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/09/22/natural-law-and-the-catholic-faith/
 
"What is natural law?

Natural law is the promulgation of the eternal moral law in all creation, especially in created persons, both in the nature of each created thing, and in the ordered relationship between created things. Moral goodness is inherent to, and understandable from, all Creation, especially created persons. The nature of created persons is more like the Nature of God than any other created thing. And so the natural law is most clearly perceived within the nature of created persons and within the proper relationships between created persons.

Saint Thomas Aquinas: “Augustine says (De Lib. Arb. i, 6) that ‘knowledge of the eternal law is imprinted on us.’ ” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 91, A. 2.)

Saint Thomas Aquinas: “The natural law is a participation in us of the eternal law….” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I-II, Q. 96, A. 2.)
Now that is more like a correct definition. All you have to prove now is that God exists, that God is just like you believe he is, and that God created some eternal moral law. No big deal… or is it?
 
… a treatise explaining natural law based on my personal theories , not official church teaching but my thoughts at current …

… my dearest friends ,

… firstly let’s look at some theory relevant before we discuss natural law pre – fall , during and post – fall in fair detail , please take a little time as I know it’s a long treatise but I’m hoping and confident you will all fin it useful and it will make a useful contribution as we try to solve this problem dear friends …

… in reply to can a loving god send or allow people to go to hell forever a small part of my thought on this follows , hell = the ultimate punishment for seriously violating the natural law knowingly and not repenting so let us look at it a little first dear friends , they who say god and eternal hell are contradictory have a true argument and win hands down no questions at all with this one , but there’s a lot more to it than first meets the eye , first of all let me say i don’t care if god sends people to hell fire forever or not , god can do what he likes and it’s not my role to tell god how to do anything , i’m here to do gods will , i do all in my power to get as many to heaven and away from hell also , as hell is very real and eternal , but evil and suffering and everything bad cannot exist as it is imperfection, it is the opposite of perfection which is love and all in love which is god , god is the model for perfection and suffering and evil and sin are opposites to love , and therefore imperfect …

… the problem came when satan rebelled and god cast him into hell with his minions , and hell is the opposite of reality for angels , as we know the angels world is heaven , so once the demons became evil that evil was not allowed to exist in reality so god cast them into non - reality or hell which is just nothing / ness , love is something and evils are nothing / ness , if evil exists in reality then that imperfection in gods creation is a reflection on the creator and if the creator is imperfect then he god will cease to be god and there’s no god , so it cannot be , hence the demons were cast into a delusion of hell , non - reality but the experience is very real and it is eternal , but an eternal realm does not have to last forever and remember this for later , eternity or eternal and forever are two completely different things altogether , something can exist in eternity for an instant , it can come and go and it is still eternal , the understanding of eternity and eternal is not clear oft i feel …

… now we know adam and eve were tested and they failed , they listened to satan and desired the forbidden knowledge of good and evil and god punished them with the forbidden knowledge and made satan there master in this world as a further punishment to a degree , the knowledge of good and evil is from satan and rubbish and should be rejected with certain considerations as there are consequences of just throwing out all laws and rules obviously , but our whole universe and cosmos , world , planet , us and everything here was turned into non - reality when our first parents fell , you read a little about it in genesis , we were thrown out of reality much the same as the demons were , we lost our magnificently beautiful paradise known as the garden of eden which is symbolic of reality in fact , we’re in a delusion now , it’s like a nightmare that is oh so real to us and we certainly experience it as real and we suffer , there is evils and we die and some go to hell , it’s all real to us , but it is all taking place outside of reality as god solves the problem of evil for us and the demons too in my opine …

… and my theories are my own and new and i’m giving a brief overview so this is not the whole story – bear this in mind please , there is a few things we need to know about angels and man , we do not have free will to do anything except gods will and this is how it should and was supposed to be , so remember if our free will to do good or evil and the demons apparent freedom to do evil is contrary to gods will they and us cannot complain if god forces us to do his will no matter what in the end , you do not need free will to love at all , you only need freedom to do gods will which is love to be exact , and that is how it was in the beginning for man pre – fall , the problem with abuse of free will came with very high intelligence and with an opportunity and temptation both demons and man are able to solve the problem of being able to defy gods will , other less intelligent life forms cannot solve such a complex problem as this so they just do gods will …

… a further point is this messy delusion has been fixed instantaneously by god outside of reality so whilst it’s a slow agonising misery for us in reality it not only does not exist god has already fixed all this problem , it’s an illusion time and change and it all taking so long , god sees all differently to us , this could keep going and don’t accuse me of anything or lable me please , this is my current thinking and theory and i’m not proclaiming church teaching , i’m just talking about what i’ve spent the last few yrs working out , there’s other stuff but I’ll limit this part for now dear friends …

continued -
 
… my own theory briefly on morality and then we’ll talk about natural law theory specifically dear friends : morality only exists outside reality in this delusion as we lost reality or the garden of eden thru the fall , in reality there is no right or wrong , good or evil , sin or virtue , i know it sounds bad , but that’s an unfallen world , this is a world the opposite of reality in varied ways throughout it , being bad is just making mistakes which is normal and just human , the prob is man is supposed to be pure love and only able to do gods will which is love , he has no conscience in reality by the way , and with the preternatural gifts and extreme natural inclination to love and massive problem solving abilities and serious even miraculous relationship with god he makes only little insignificant mistakes , harmless ones , and learns very quick …

… here man and his world are the opposite of what they should be in varied ways so it’s a complete mess , because adam and eve listened to satan as he told them knowing good and evil they will be like god and did as satan said , god is punishing us by making man and his whole world good and evil , every single thought man has is classified good or evil , it can be many names , correct or incorrect , perfect or imperfect , beautiful or ugly , etc etc etc we classify all as good or evil , but this is not reality , this is a punishment from god , we divide all as good or evil but it’s not reality at all , and this forbidden knowledge of good and evil came from satan and we should not trust it at all , if it were any good god would have given it to us and not made it a punishment for us …

… but along with that man wants to be god so god is rubbing our noses in the knowledge of good and evil , and man is trying to be god and he may get sick of it eventually i hope , and satan rules over our world and man so much to rub mans nose into listening to satan instead of himself god , but although this delusion is not really real and temporary — sin , evil , demons , death , hell etc are all very real experiences here , so delusion or not we must play gods game as he’s established it …
…we will get reality back soon i hope by the way , and the big reasons god threw us out of reality into the delusion is because evil or imperfection cannot be allowed to exist or it reflects on the creator and any imperfection in the creator means he ceases to exist , the demons were cast into the opposite of their reality heaven into hell too , but also god cannot become a man and suffer and die to redeem us in reality but in this delusion he can and has , god does everything for infinite reasons though , that’s my own theory on morality very briefly …

… finally we’ll explore the op about natural law , is it real or not and what is the nuts and bolts of it all pre – fall , during the fall and post – fall ( now ) ??? ,
… what was man like prior to the fall ( original sin , which is really disobedience to gods will which forced god to take us out of reality which is the garden of eden state in my own opine dear friends ) ??? …

Non – fallen man is an immaculate conception you could say and of course sinless , but there is much more to it , in the beginning man only had free will to do gods will which is just “ love “ , and only being capable of “ loving “ man had no need of a conscience at all , man had no knowledge of good or evil in any form at all , man was programmed perfectly by god with a natural inclination to love , and indeed that is all he could do , possessing the full preternatural gifts was a huge plus for man clearly and it is largely the reason our whole world and humanity is in such a mess because man has lost the preternatural gifts and cannot solve a single problem perfectly , completely and permanently , a big big loss for man , also our world and man himself and his experience of this whole world was like a heaven on earth , through his senses man experienced a sheer paradise here and himself being set to max on an emotional level to max pleasure and happiness and this always increasing meant it was quite a paradise here at first …
… man had a law from god in the beginning but not as usually thought , man is really just another creature here among the others , there is not much difference between a man and a tree or a man and a cat , but man had an exalted position in his paradise here as leader and no other creatures here would ever harm or be dangerous to man , nothing in our world was hostile or dangerous to man , even the sun , or hot or cold , man did not need or know about clothes and had a perfectly stable and comfortable body temperature in even extremes of heat and cold …

… but back to mans original natural law , it was not written on his heart and he did not have a conscience so it was not there , the very will of god was built into man and he just behaved perfectly natural without even knowing it , much the same as all the other fellow creatures here , man also enjoyed a very special friendship with god and god would openly converse with man in his thoughts I think , and man was protected by god from all harm ,even natural disasters , by god and even miraculously so when necessary , man was not meant to grow old and wrinkley and grey and die , man would achieve physical peak at maybe 15 y.o. and continue to grow until full maturity at say 30 y.o. and then never change appearance again ever , man was different to here and had natural beauty and a perfect body par excellence unlike this fallen state , man was greater than any genius here so working out what he needed was easy oft and in any case he could talk to god when he wanted and needed , the garden of eden which is reality is mans main world , heaven is a part of that reality but I think there is much more awaiting us in eternity and eternities myself , an adventure none could ever dream up , truly exciting beyond belief for us all I’m sure …

continued -
 
… but due to mans higher intelligence and especially with the full preternatural gifts when tempted and tested man disobeyed god and as mentioned god had to throw us out of reality into this delusion for reasons explained , but god does all for infinite reasons , you can read god telling adam and eve some of our punishments in genesis and when understood you realize god is turning man and his whole world into the opposite of reality , on natural law we’ll focus now , because man wanted the forbidden knowledge of good and evil and listened to satan and wanted to be god , god is both punishing man and simultaneously fixing the whole mess in our world , eventually there will be a new heaven and earth created as scripture says too , hopefully soon , man still has gods natural law of love inscribed and built into his very nature , but mans mind is really messed up without the preternatural gifts and he is a real mess , actually man starts rotting and decaying from conception as one big punishment from the fall was we shall die and everything here in this delusion is killing us in various ways now …

… and because man wanted to know good and evil god has made our whole world and everything man thinks , says or does good and / or evil , in actual fact good and evil don’t exist , it’s just acting out roles , reality is love and it’s opposite is evil which is nothing / ness and cannot exist , love is something and only something can and must exist , so man barely able to recognize let alone know the natural law of love built into his very human nature is a mess , this natural law exists but fallen man is sick and now naturally prone to evil so he is a defective and faulty …

… but the most noticeable remedy of god to this dilemma is that every man has a conscience , the voice of conscience which is like a command from god speaks with absolute authority , and no reasonable man can deny the existence of conscience in man , when you do evil your conscience troubles you and you need to fix it , when you do good conscience rewards you , like the old saying goes “ there’s nothing like a clear conscience “ and conscience is not an even near perfect reflection of the natural law of love built into mans very nature by god to ensure man naturally does gods will , but god has offered it as a help , man must inform and instruct and develop his conscience , this post fall natural law of conscience is largely learned laws and rules , this is self-evident by people all over the world having different laws and rules governing and guiding their conscience , a terrorist suicide bomber can do it in good conscience if he truly believes he’s right , I hate that lot what they do though , but a normal Christian could not even consider this as a conscionable act , obviously not …

… so whilst mans mind is darkened and malfunctioning and he can oft barely recognize or perceive the natural law of love built into his very human nature by god he has been given a conscience by god temporarily as a help , all the laws and rules that go into developing and influencing mans conscience are learned and not necessarily , and certainly not always , a part of gods natural law , god has not abandoned man though , god gave us the Decalogue or 10 commandments to teach us some basics of how to live naturally as we were meant , but fallen man must learn the original natural law of love now as we know I’m sure , when god gave us his law what he actually gave us was his word , and his word then became flesh in Christ jesus and came to further explain the natural law of love and to save us and establish the catholic church , amongst many other things …

… all authority was given to the church to teach in jesus’ name , and the church has a major role in determining , discerning , teaching and instructing about morality , which is simply the church trying to help man live gods natural law of love enshrined in human nature ut no longer able to be known by man at all virtually due to mans fallen condition , so for me , to say natural law does not exist is wrong , you just need to understand more and if your reasonable you cannot deny it exists and must , what if man had no conscience at all ??? , hell on earth , fallen man has an ever evolving and changing massive infinite system of laws and rules in his head which makes him judge all as good or evil , and reward good or punish evil , he applies these rules to absolutely everything and it is complete insanity but that is mans punishment for now , these endless and ever changing laws and rules are not natural but they control man so much he is totally enslave by them , but when we get reality back these and all bad problems will go , something to really work for and look forward to , I’ll leave it there as it’s getting quite long but hope you all find it helpful and useful dearest friends …
… may god bless and love you 👍:),

… john …
 
Now that is more like a correct definition. All you have to prove now is that God exists, that God is just like you believe he is, and that God created some eternal moral law. No big deal… or is it?
No, I don’t. This is a Catholic forum so it is a given that God exists. YOU prove that God does not exist. No big deal, right?
 
No, I don’t. This is a Catholic forum so it is a given that God exists.
This is a philosophy forum, so there are no “givens”.
YOU prove that God does not exist. No big deal, right?
Well, I have an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my basement. Its ever-present existence protects me from all sins. Can prove that it does not exist? This recurring “prove that God does not exist” theme is very dumb. Would be nice to see the end of it.
 
This is a philosophy forum, so there are no “givens”.

Well, I have an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my basement. Its ever-present existence protects me from all sins. Can prove that it does not exist? This recurring “prove that God does not exist” theme is very dumb. Would be nice to see the end of it.
This is a philosophy forum on a Catholic forum, so yes the existence of God is a given. If I were to go to an atheist forum or agnostic forum the non-existence of God would the starting premises.

You are absolutely right that you cannot prove a negative. But as been said many times on this forum: we understand we cannot give you scientific proof God exists so demanding proof that he does is as exasperating to us as asking you to prove God doesn’t exist is to you. We have told you our belief is based in faith.

Faith that is generally back by personal and subjective experiences. Answered prayers, moments where you avoided a very large disaster, etc. I understand that you would say “well that’s just luck, chance and probability.” Maybe, but my experiences have been that luck is a bit too neat for me to be comfortable saying it is just chance.

Besides if you are a man of science have you given religion a real try? You tell us it doesn’t look good on paper. We say: yes we know but it is more than the sum of its part. Your next step is: that’s illogical. What your next step should be is: Why do they think there is more to this? Go to Mass for a few months. Sit there and ask God to help you understand our faith. See what happens. Isn’t that how you pursue knowledge? Experiments?
 
… This recurring “prove that God does not exist” theme is very dumb. Would be nice to see the end of it.
This recurring “prove that God exists” theme is very dumb. Would be nice to see the end of it.
 
This is a philosophy forum on a Catholic forum, so yes the existence of God is a given. If I were to go to an atheist forum or agnostic forum the non-existence of God would the starting premises.
But this isn’t an atheist forum, it is a philosophy forum so there should be no premises at all, unless the discussion topic specifically includes that as axiomatic.

Saying that God’s existence is not a given, is equivalent to saying that He doesn’t exist, is completely illogical. :tsktsk:

This is just a wild guess, but I rather suspect that at least 99% of us have encountered some form of doubt during our lifetimes. So if you want to take it down to brass tacks, if I’m right then nearly all of us are, or have been at some time, an agnostic. 🤷

I am often accused of being a “relativist,” but I say that if we are going to be absolutely absolute about our positions, then this is the only honest conclusion available. 🤓

Besides, being agnostic does not make a person “not Catholic.” To say otherwise is to take a position against Church teachings. :mad:

Alan
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist
Science might not be absolutely trustworthy (but what is), however its more trustworthy than religion because it has verifiable results (unlike religion generally speaking). Moreover, science creates technology, which is far more impressive than the spotty record of achievements for religion.


The spotty achievement of religion is that, morally speaking, it makes some people better than they might otherwise be; but other people refuse the offer.

The achievement of science by comparison is dismal; it does not make people morally better at all.

Science is never absolutely trustworthy: See the most recent proof below. :rolleyes:

telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8783011/Speed-of-light-broken-at-CERN-scientists-claim.html
 
Simplistic. If you have a pile of plutonium atoms, which is just one atom shorter than the critical mass, it will just “sit” there. If you add just one more atom to it, it will explode. There will be a qualitative change, caused by a quantitiative one. Which is the “essence” of a pile of plutonium?
You’re being intentionally obscurantist. It is irrational to talk about the essence of a group of identical things – each of those things are the instantiation of a single essence.

You know how I know this? Because you can call it a “pile of plutonium” – meaning you have a clear and definitive sense of what plutonium is, and hence can recognize pluralities of it.
Arbitrary and irrelevant. Dogs, wolves and jackals are classified differently.
i.e., because there is something that distinguishes them.
It would be some of the possible attributes, which the classifier deems important - and which decision aready presupposes a value system, on which the classification is based. The “essence” of a ball for a child is that it is nice toy, he can play with.
With due respect, that’s quite retarded. A ball is a sphere – therefore a ball is that which is spherical. A ball would still be a ball if it were red or blue – therefore color is not essential to something being called a ball. And it would still be a ball if it were made of rubber or plastic – hence the material of which its made is not essential to something being called a ball. Who cares what the child calls it?
And that is precisely what? Stop being imprecise, and start to become precise… if you can, that is.
How the hell should I know? I’m not a bovine biologist.
Always arbitrary. And as such, the “essence” is also arbitrary.
And yet there is a basis for distinguishing between man and cow, no? Or do you deny this? (I’ve asked you this multiple times and you keep evading the question).

If there is in fact nothing that is essential to our classification of “man” and “cow” then we would not in fact be able to have this conversation, since there would be confusion about what I mean when I say “man” or “cow.” Yet clearly you know what I mean when I say “man,” and you know what I mean when I say “cow.”
That is precisely what it means. There is no “red” and “orange”. We use an arbitrary dividing line on the spectrum, and that line is contingent upon our eyes.
And yet that “arbitrary dividing line” is based on an objective sense of there being such a thing as red-ness or orange-ness – hence why everyone can agree that orange is orange and no one (except those with sensory disorders) mistake orange for blue.
And the fact that we can differentiate them has nothing to do with this nebulous essence.
The essence of a thing is hardly “nebulous.” You keep speaking of it as if the essence of a thing were some kind of spiritual substance it possesses. It isn’t. The essence of a thing is simply what it objectively is, that without it would be something else.

Again, do you deny that there is a difference between a man and a starfish? This is literally what you are denying here – that there is a meaningful basis to acknowledge the differences between things.
Nonsense. It is unitive because it feels good for both.
And why does it feel good? Because it induces couples to procreate.

Again, handshaking doesn’t feel good because it isn’t procreative. It also isn’t unitive. Surprise!
The fact that it may lead to procreation is totally irrelevant. Even people who are unable to reproduce subscribe to the unitive part.
Hello? The faculty is still essentially procreative – even if some individual instantation of it is either chronically or temporarily incapable of procreation. Hence its use is always essentially unitive.

This is why the post-orgasmic chemical reactions of the infertile are *identical *to those of the fertile.
And also the waste elimination system. 🙂 What is in name???
Biological redundancy hardly alters the purpose of the REPRODUCTIVE system. If the human sexual configuration existed merely for the purpose of discharging waste there would no need for sexual differentiation. But it is different – and these differences moreover are suggestive of and conducive to the end of procreation, as every evolutionary biologist knows. Or do you deny this, too?
If there is a conception. But if there is none?
The faculty is ORDERED IN PRINCIPLE toward procreation. Hence its use must be ORDERED IN PRINCIPLE to the procreative end – whether or not procreation is objectively even possible of occurring.

Hence why the Church teaches that even chronically infertile couples may marry – provided they are capable of completing the sexual act in a manner consistent with its end. Castrati, by contrast, don’t get to marry.
It is yet another vaild and natural use for the same organ.
The sexual faculty includes a good deal more than just external genital configurations.

Again, the fact of biological redundancy does not mean there is no basis for distinguishing between the reproductive system and the excretory system. As witnessed by the fact that everyone nowadays continues to distinguish between the reproductive system and the excretory system.

And at any rate as has been mentioned, the illicit use of a faculty is that which FRUSTRATES its natural end, not that which is merely used in addition to it. I have legs so that I can get around; but there is nothing to object to about me using my leg to balance something. There is plenty, by contrast, to object to me sawing off my leg if such isn’t medically necessary.
 
(continued from above)
Only for Christians. And that is why you really should come clean. Don’t try to include others in your “illicit” usage of our organs. It will not work. By the way, your usage of the word “ordered” reeks of its religious origin. There is nothing “illicit” about it in a secular environment. Secularists recongize that the procreative aspect is definitely there, they just do not agree that it is of special importance. Most people (even millions of Catholics - triple cheers for them and their courage to dare to think for themselves) do not want a random pregnancy, they want to control when to procreate, so the upcoming child can be cared for properly. Which is an admirable attitude, and It is strange that keeping the child’s best interest in mind is “frowed upon” by the church - if that means the postponement of conception and if the couple goes actively proactive in ensuring that no conception happens when it is not wanted.
:rolleyes:

If what I am saying is true, it is NECESSARILY TRUE FOR EVERYONE.

If what I am saying is false, it is NECESSARILY FALSE FOR EVERYONE.

Nothing I’ve said here relies on anything like divine revelation – it is a purely philosophical position. So don’t bother saying “for thee but not for me.”
 
Angry

If you refuse to believe in invisible giant rabbit companions why should I believe in invisible gods?

Because I don’t need to believe in those rabbits. I need to believe in God.

**Saying that I have claimed infallibility is one of the most intellectually dishonest things anyone has said to me on this forum. And that is saying quite a bit. **

Then you are not infallible? That’s a relief. It’s a relief to know you are not at all positively certain there is no God. That must be why you are here at Catholic Answers … still searching for Him?

It can’t be done by the head. It only happens in the heart. Don’t look for logical proof. Look for love. Seek and you will find. Seek with your brain alone and you will find that your brain is not the place where God wants to meet you.
Well, at least you admit your irrationality.

And that you have no more reason to believe in Harvey than God (other than your need of course:rolleyes:).
 
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