There is no 'right' religion

[zab]

I doubt that today’s Roman Catholic Church has more than a nominal relationship with the original Church that Christ intended to create, as much as its present-day management wants us to believe otherwise.

I believe that Christ was not mistaken when estabished His Church and said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I doubt that today’s Roman Catholic Church has more than a nominal relationship with the original Church that Christ intended to create, as much as its present-day management wants us to believe otherwise.

Then you claim to know God’s will and intentions.

Why would Jesus create a Church only for the time He lived?

Why would Jesus create a Church destined to fail?

I humbly suggest you read the four Gospels, front to back. Then read Acts.

 

[mdrummer5]

America is not perfect, does that mean its citizens should abandon her?

Man is not perfect, does that mean God should abandon us?

I have to agree with the OP to a point here. To suggest that if you’re not Catholic or at the very least Christian you are going to hell (because that’s essentially what’s at the heart of this matter) is ridiculous. But that’s what this question suggests. That if a man abandons the teachings of Catholicism that God will abandon him.

We believe that God is all loving and all forgiving. How could God not forgive us if we follow a different faith that still honors him just in ways that are different from Catholic teachings? Jews still follow the traditions from the OT. Can anyone justifiably argue that our all forgiving and all loving God would condemn them to hell for continuing to worship him the way they do?

Atheists… well that’s a different story. They don’t have faith at all… there is perhaps no other belief (this is debatable of course) that is a bigger slap in the face of God.

 

[zab]

Man is not perfect, does that mean God should abandon us?

I have to agree with the OP to a point here. To suggest that if you’re not Catholic or at the very least Christian you are going to hell (because that’s essentially what’s at the heart of this matter) is ridiculous. But that’s what this question suggests. That if a man abandons the teachings of Catholicism that God will abandon him.

We believe that God is all loving and all forgiving. How could God not forgive us if we follow a different faith that still honors him just in ways that are different from Catholic teachings? Jews still follow the traditions from the OT. Can anyone justifiably argue that our all forgiving and all loving God would condemn them to hell for continuing to worship him the way they do?

Atheists… well that’s a different story. They don’t have faith at all… there is perhaps no other belief (this is debatable of course) that is a bigger slap in the face of God.

I also understand what the OP is getting at. I believe that when Christ walked the earth and was preaching the kingdom of heaven, He did it in such a way as to draw sinners to him. Yes, he spoke the truth, but He drew them in with love. Speaking truth without love can have an opposite effect. Instead of drawing people, it turns them away.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Man is not perfect, does that mean God should abandon us?

I have to agree with the OP to a point here. To suggest that if you’re not Catholic or at the very least Christian you are going to hell (because that’s essentially what’s at the heart of this matter) is ridiculous. But that’s what this question suggests. That if a man abandons the teachings of Catholicism that God will abandon him.

We believe that God is all loving and all forgiving. How could God not forgive us if we follow a different faith that still honors him just in ways that are different from Catholic teachings? Jews still follow the traditions from the OT. Can anyone justifiably argue that our all forgiving and all loving God would condemn them to hell for continuing to worship him the way they do?

Atheists… well that’s a different story. They don’t have faith at all… there is perhaps no other belief (this is debatable of course) that is a bigger slap in the face of God.

Respectfully, it seems you don’t have the Church’s teachings well understood. I’m not passing my own judgement upon you as I was in the dark until recently too.

As I understand it, the Church does in fact teach that the path to Heaven goes through its doors. There is the principle of Invinsible Ignorance which states someone who lives God’s Law yet does not know the Church or Jesus may attain Salvation. God can save whomever He chooses, yet Jesus spent three years of His life on Earth giving instruction on how to pass Final Judgement. Fundamentalists misinterpret Scripture by believing the only requirement for Eternal Salvation is to accept Jesus as your personal Saviour. Unfortunately for them there is more to the story. He actually did teach that if you reject Him the consequences are damnation. Jesus taught many will not join Him in Heaven and many saints concur. Read John Bosco’s Vision of Hell or the revelations Our Lady made at Fatima. Purgatory exists as a place to cleanse the stain of sin from our souls prior to entering Heaven. I’m sure many Catholics and non Catholics are there right now. Through the Church we can lessen our time in Purgatory; Purgatory is part of the Church.

Most sermons and RCIA classes don’t talk about sin and eternal damnation. The Church hasn’t changed its teachings on these subjects. If you search the Internet you can find out these things as I am currently doing. I suggest obtaining a copy of the Baltimore Catechesim as it makes things pretty clear. Here’s something I’ve learned recently: The Last Four Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell. I pray no one takes their Salvation for granted.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I also understand what the OP is getting at. I believe that when Christ walked the earth and was preaching the kingdom of heaven, He did it in such a way as to draw sinners to him. Yes, he spoke the truth, but He drew them in with love. Speaking truth without love can have an opposite effect. Instead of drawing people, it turns them away.

Jesus drew sinners to Him who repented and gave up their sinful ways. Jesus never said you can sin all you want yet still hang with him for eternity.

 

[Lamafacaja]

I have been through a lot of questioning in the process of becoming Catholic, and a lot of questioning on becoming Catholic. I now have a theory. I don’t believe any religion is ‘right.’ There is no such thing as the ‘right’ religion. Why am I Catholic? I believe Christ was the Incarnate God, I believe he rose body and soul to heaven, I believe he somehow comes to us in the seven sacraments of the Church but I can’t provide irrevocable proof as to how he does it.

See, right off the bat this makes no sense. We know Christ rose from the dead because the Church, which Christ established, and the bible which God has given to us through the Church tells us it’s true. These truths aren’t just some private revelation of yours. You know they’re true because you’ve been told. But how can you know the Sacraments are true if you can’t even trust the Church in the first place? So, your theory is illogical.

I am not a creationist, I accept evolution. I don’t believe this changes the belief God created us. I accept historical criticism because again, it doesn’t change anything, it just gives us greater understanding of the Catholic faith. I refuse to be pigeon holed. I am not a moderneist, I am not a traditionalist. I am Catholic.

The Church hasn’t declared that we have to believe in the literal translation of the creation story. So, that’s not really a problem.

Why am I posting? I don’t like organised religion.

It’s odd that you’ve converted to the most organized religion on the planet.

I have certain affection for atheists as a consequence. My eldest child recently received his first Holy Communion. Who was there? My friend who is an atheist. Not because it was a great religious experience. He came because he is my friend and like an uncle to my kids. Their Godparents were too busy to come.

Mmmh. That was too bad they couldn’t make it.

I hear time and time again on traditionalist forums about obedience and ‘we are the true Church.’ Can any traditionalists out there understand if someone causes you to loose faith, they are more guilty than the person who looses faith and it’s not all about unquestioning obedience? I believe the Pope has a unique role in guiding the Church. Is he always right? I don’t think so.

The Pope isn’t perfect, none of us are perfect. He’s to be respected and highly esteemed. Have Popes made mistakes in the past? Yes. But the teachings–the defined doctrines of the faith, these are perfect. Christ has safeguarded these.

Does that mean I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches? No. Does it not take more faith to say, ‘I’m not sure but this is what I believe?’

Does it take more faith? Yeah perhaps, but why do you believe it?

I have not come on this forum to criticize traditionalists. I know nothing of the Church prior to Vatican II and I have no idea what it has been like to deal with the changes and controversies. I have come on this forum to ask traditionalists, can they understand what it is like to completely loose faith in organised religion but not God? Can you understand why I think people who cause someone to loose faith because of their lack of compassion, understanding and love is more guilty than the person who loosed faith in organised religion?

As a Catholic, no I can’t understand that. If I really lost all faith in the Catholic Church, I’d go and be something else.

 

[zab]

Jesus drew sinners to Him who repented and gave up their sinful ways. Jesus never said you can sin all you want yet still hang with him for eternity.

Why is it that when one speaks of using charity it provokes such negativety? Jesus drew sinners to Him before they repented. He had to reel them in first.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Why is it that when one speaks of using charity it provokes such negativety? Jesus drew sinners to Him before they repented. He had to reel them in first.

I’m sorry, are you implying that you are being charitable and I’m being negative?

Jesus reeled them in and they converted. It was the most charitable thing He could have done. To encourage or not help someone to give up their sinful life is most certainly not charitable. Do you think otherwise?

 

[zab]

I’m sorry, are you implying that you are being charitable and I’m being negative?

Jesus reeled them in and they converted. It was the most charitable thing He could have done. To encourage or not help someone to give up their sinful life is most certainly not charitable. Do you think otherwise?

Did you think that I thought otherwise when you attacked my post about using charity?

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

How did I “attack” your post?

 

[ConstantineTG]

May I ask then why you offer your opinion here? The reason I’m asking is that I’m trying to understand how this forum works. The Traditional Catholic section is entitled a discussion of traditional Catholicism. I thought that meant traditional Catholics chat here. If you are not a traditional Catholic then are you here to learn as I am? From some of the threads I’ve read, arguments can flare up and people get banned. Does that happen between traditionals or between them and people many would not consider traditional? Thank you in advance for clarifying.

I’m just being honest. I do see myself as in line with the Church today. But here the term “traditionalist” applies to those who prefer the Tridentine Mass. I don’t hate it, I will attend it on occassion, but its not something I will actively seek out to attend regularly, it just doesn’t suit me.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I appreciate your honesty as I hope you do mine as well. I’m just trying to get the hang of this chatroom. I “lurked” for awhile on this and another one and finally signed up when I couldn’t find a couple answers on my own.

From what I"ve observed, Catholics can engage in very uncharitable discussions with one another in Internet chatrooms. If this people in this chatroom honestly strive to avoid such animosity and division, I would think it best to avoid the possiblity as much as possilble.

The title of this forum is “Traditional Catholicism: Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. If you self-identify yourself as not a traditional Catholic then the motivation for discussion is either to learn or debate. Would you agree?

 

[Joan1969]

Did Jesus require Peter’s successors to implement his authority in the way it has been? That is what I am not convinced of. I think the Church is too authoritarian and I do not think that is what Jesus intended. It’s not the teachings I question. It’s how things are implemented.

Hi Minky,

I would be interested in your scriptural reasons for believing that Jesus did not intend for the Church to exercise authority as she does? There are many ideas going around about Jesus that have no basis in the four Gospels.

Our modern world seems to struggle with the very idea of obedience, perhaps because we have so very many choices, compared with people in the past. But just because we can enjoy greater choice in some areas, that doesn’t imply that obedience is not still crucial in other areas.

As far as the mistakes of the Church, the really remarkable thing about history is just the opposite - that an identifiable institution can survive for two millenia, developing a doctrine over the course of centuries that continues to be defensible and intellectually sound today and teaching a core moral system which is more relevant than ever. This is why the media and other secularists are so uniquely threatened by the Catholic Church.

I too am dealing with autism in my family, and I do know what it is to struggle and have questions, including spiritual ones. I think everybody is in the same boat, in one respect or another. Priests definitely have their own struggles which we ourselves cannot fully understand. Talking with each other a lot is wonderful, but there’s also a point where we look to God for the answers, and a priest happens to have a unique authority and training to help us with this, regardless of his age (this is assuming that he himself has the humility to look to his own authority figures).

God Bless,
Joan

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Matthew 16: Jesus gave the keys to Heaven to St Peter along with the powers to bind and loosen. He said what St. Peter binds on Earth will be bound in Heaven. That seems like pretty clear authority to me.

 

[vsedriver]

We cannot deny that religion is easily exploited as a means of social control and religion does have it’s dark side. We would appear naive if we did not acknowledge that. I don’t believe that everyone who professes belief in God has a desire to look after my best interests, or anyone else’s.

you need to separate the individuals from the Church. Individuals will always err, and sin. You are correct to say that the Church has been exploited by sinners. You should not put your faith in individuals but in the Church. The Church can not err because it is protected by the Holy Spirit.

Those individuals who were disobedient to Church teachings caused great harm and scandal to the faithful. This is not the fault of Church teaching, this is the fault of sinners.

 

[vsedriver]

St. Peter died long ago.

So did George Washington but we still have a President of the United States. The office doesn’t die with the man.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I appreciate your honesty as I hope you do mine as well. I’m just trying to get the hang of this chatroom. I “lurked” for awhile on this and another one and finally signed up when I couldn’t find a couple answers on my own.

From what I"ve observed, Catholics can engage in very uncharitable discussions with one another in Internet chatrooms. If this people in this chatroom honestly strive to avoid such animosity and division, I would think it best to avoid the possiblity as much as possilble.

The title of this forum is “Traditional Catholicism: Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. If you self-identify yourself as not a traditional Catholic then the motivation for discussion is either to learn or debate. Would you agree?

I don’t want to derail the OP’s thread, this will be the last time I will reply to this “discussion within the discussion.” I will only say that this has nothing to do with the thread and its better that we do not talk about this here. If you wish to pursue this conversation, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, lets not derail threads. I know some threads by the nature of the conversation evolve into a different topic. This isn’t it, so lets be respectful of the OP.

Thanks!

 

[rben20]

minkymurph,

There is a right religion and that religion is the Catholic Faith. You should not be a Catholic because it suits you but because you believe. It’s a scary thought for you to be a teacher of the Faith when it is something you lack or question so much. You are right in the sense that all religions have dimensions of truth. Not all are completely false. The Catholic Church though affirms that it is the fullness of truth while other religions and philosophies could only have an incomplete truth. This is something Chesterton thought and Father Barron (check out his videos on youtube) continues to teach. Even atheists can have truths in what they do because God works through all because He desires EVERYONE to be saved. As we are taught we can only be saved through His Son Jesus Christ. Knowing that and going against it does not save us. To object to this because you think its offensive to other religions is to object Christ’s own words. Your feelings come and go but Christ’s words are true and solid.

You seem to be against “organized religion.” Frankly, I’ve grown tired of this phrase as I do not understand why people are against organization. It reminds me of people against “the man” or authority. (not saying you feel this way) Would you rather have religion be disorganized? Anarchy simply does not work. The simple fact is God is organized. We see this with the organization of the angels in heaven, the complex but intricate world…the Church reflects this organization as well. God established the Church as a divine institution to be run by man. There are problems because of men but it is what Jesus established and wishes. Is this really something to argue? How can you be against organization when Jesus chose 12 men to help Him with His ministry? How can you be against the Apostles who chose to fill in their offices (successors) and as their oversight grew create more offices to oversee? If you have a problem with authority that you have a problem with much of the way the early Church was formed and is still organized today. People with this kind of thinking tend to be protestant but then again they are in a wash of belief when it comes to doctrine and faith. They begin to find the “church” that suits them. You show signs of this so I am worried.

Lastly, traditionalists are firstly Catholic but choose to be identified as traditional because they value the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church such as Gregorian Chant, use of Latin, the Traditional Latin Mass, etc. These traditions were handed down to us and served the Church for centuries. Sadly, there are some people in the Church who don’t care about the traditions of the past today in modern times or feel indifferent. Traditionalist however do care and wish to keep it alive as it is our Catholic identity as Roman Catholics. The Holy Father has show his preference for tradition and we should follow his example. You may not claim to be a traditionalist, or a modernist or charismatic whatever, it doesn’t matter…but before anything Traditional Catholicism was the only Catholicism and to some of us is what we love and prefer to any other recent developments. Being a Catholic and being a traditionalist is not mutually exclusive.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I don’t want to derail the OP’s thread, this will be the last time I will reply to this “discussion within the discussion.” I will only say that this has nothing to do with the thread and its better that we do not talk about this here. If you wish to pursue this conversation, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, lets not derail threads. I know some threads by the nature of the conversation evolve into a different topic. This isn’t it, so lets be respectful of the OP.

Thanks!

Of course you are right. We should respect each other and the guidelines of this forum.