There is no 'right' religion

[veilofveronica]

Hi there,
I’ve been very close to where you are. In fact, more so, because my frustration with the “rules” of organized religion etc led me away from the Church for a very long time. I actually was a practicing Wiccan! So yes, I totally relate to what you are saying.

My advice is to just keep praying and to ask God to reveal to you the beauty and truth that is present in the Church. I know that you see much of it already, but when you see this, a lot of the other things start to fall into place. It’s easy to get disillusioned by a lot of the things that go on in the Church that you don’t like, or don’t agree with. There will always be something for most of us.

Keep praying. Keep going to Mass. I know you are there already. Remember, Jesus is He who is present in the Mass, and He calls us to join Him. Follow that, and the rest will come.

Blessings of Christ to you

 

[minkymurph]

So if you don’t know Irish, and Irish is used for Mass on St. Patrick’s Day that means you don’t understand what is being said, correct?

Yes and No. I know what the responses mean but because I can’t speak Irish, I can’t say them. However, if you go to a Mass said in Irish you pick bits and pieces up. The Homily is said in English.

Besides English you can follow along in French and Portuguese, that’s great. Living in Europe you can easily travel around and experience Mass in many languages, yet you wouldn’t understand them. Now what if you learned liturgical Latin? Then you could go to a Latin Mass anywhere in the world and know exactly what was being said. Wouldn’t that prove the word catholic is synonymous with universal?

That’s a valid point. I’ve gone to Mass when I am on holiday, as do many others which means the people present would speak different languages. If we all knew liturgical Latin we could all join in. I wouldn’t be against the idea of learning liturgical Latin and attending a Latin Mass. I think I said I was at a Mass in the Vatican which was sang in Latin and it was a lovely exeperience. There is a Catholic cathedral near the college I attend and once a week they have a Latin Mass. Our tutors have encouraged us to go for the experience.

However, it would be more for understanding and experiencing our cultural heritage rather than ‘saying the Mass in English is wrong’ if you get my drift. Speaking of which, I think there are parts of Ireland were Mass is sometimes said at a Mass rock to gain greater insight into the devotion people had to the Mass when Ireland was under the Penal Laws.

 

[minkymurph]

Hi there,
I’ve been very close to where you are. In fact, more so, because my frustration with the “rules” of organized religion etc led me away from the Church for a very long time. I actually was a practicing Wiccan! So yes, I totally relate to what you are saying.

My advice is to just keep praying and to ask God to reveal to you the beauty and truth that is present in the Church. I know that you see much of it already, but when you see this, a lot of the other things start to fall into place. It’s easy to get disillusioned by a lot of the things that go on in the Church that you don’t like, or don’t agree with. There will always be something for most of us.

Keep praying. Keep going to Mass. I know you are there already. Remember, Jesus is He who is present in the Mass, and He calls us to join Him. Follow that, and the rest will come.

Blessings of Christ to you

Thank you for your kind words. Beat’s ‘do as your told or you’ll go to Hell.’

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

However, it would be more for understanding and experiencing our cultural heritage rather than ‘saying the Mass in English is wrong’ if you get my drift. Speaking of which, I think there are parts of Ireland were Mass is sometimes said at a Mass rock to gain greater insight into the devotion people had to the Mass when Ireland was under the Penal Laws.

It’s true Irish Cathoicism has a rich history which all of us should know. As much as I love it, I would say the Church’s culture should come first. To connect with the greater Church and Catholics everywhere then learning liturgical Latin makes sense. I’m not saying English or any other vernacular is wrong, just that the Church’s official language is worth knowing. That way you could experience Mass anywhere in the world, what could be more unifying than that. Also, one official language would be in line with the four marks of the Church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic) catholic in this context meaning universal. Finally, in Scripture we see that Hebrew was a language used in worship, a special language, one for God. Mass is about God first, us second. Would you agree?

 

[Little_Mary]

Hi there,
I’ve been very close to where you are. In fact, more so, because my frustration with the “rules” of organized religion etc led me away from the Church for a very long time. I actually was a practicing Wiccan! So yes, I totally relate to what you are saying.

My advice is to just keep praying and to ask God to reveal to you the beauty and truth that is present in the Church. I know that you see much of it already, but when you see this, a lot of the other things start to fall into place. It’s easy to get disillusioned by a lot of the things that go on in the Church that you don’t like, or don’t agree with. There will always be something for most of us.

Keep praying. Keep going to Mass. I know you are there already. Remember, Jesus is He who is present in the Mass, and He calls us to join Him. Follow that, and the rest will come.

Blessings of Christ to you

This is really nice veilofveronica. We would all do well to try and keep these things in mind.

Here is a prayer that I keep by my desk and I pray it when I see it…

"Here I am, Lord, I come to do your will. Make of me what you will this day. Here I am, Lord, Here I am"
Peace,
M

 

[minkymurph]

It’s true Irish Cathoicism has a rich history which all of us should know. As much as I love it, I would say the Church’s culture should come first. To connect with the greater Church and Catholics everywhere then learning liturgical Latin makes sense. I’m not saying English or any other vernacular is wrong, just that the Church’s official language is worth knowing. That way you could experience Mass anywhere in the world, what could be more unifying than that. Also, one official language would be in line with the four marks of the Church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic) catholic in this context meaning universal. Finally, in Scripture we see that Hebrew was a language used in worship, a special language, one for God. Mass is about God first, us second. Would you agree?

Yes and No. I see your point about unity. However, a truly universal Church reaches beyond it’s own border to those outside it’s borders. Non-Catholics have a 'you don’t know, what we know, your not in our club, and you can’t participate in our Mass ‘cos you don’t know Latin’ view of the use of Latin. Whew, I’m exhausted after that mouthful! Lots of non-Catholics would go to a Mass when on holiday and there are Protestants here who go to novenas. Saying the Mass in the vernacular makes them feel more welcome and included. A wedding or a funeral would also, to me, be a time to use the vernacular as lots of non-Catholics may be there.

I actually thought Aramaic was originally used for worship and Greek was used prior to the use of Latin. I agree Mass is about God first and I would suspect He doesn’t mind what language you use. He doesn’t even mind if your deaf and dumb and can’t use any language or hear what is going on.

 

[Joan1969]

That’s how I would understand it as well. The point I was making is having the ‘right’ religion doesn’t make you a good person.

This is something of a strawman. I’ve never heard anyone try to claim that. But that’s my point- I think you need to look at how you’re seeing the Church right now, in an unfair light.

I believe God shows more mercy to a person who believes things that may not be true but tries to live as a Christian, than someone who has all their theological ‘i’s’ and ‘t’s’ crossed but is untruthful, dishonest and cruel.

Also a 100% Catholic way of seeing things. I have never read any spiritual book that didn’t see gravely sinful Christians in a far worse light than unbelievers.

This is what makes me ask if it’s so important to be in the ‘right’ religion.

Not a good conclusion. It’s like saying that if a sick person eats vegetables, that must mean that vegetables are not good for you.

Abusing children, and I don’t just mean sexually, I mean physically and psychologically as well, is not what I would call a human failing. But as you say, not all priests are guilty of that…

I think Ireland has taken an even bigger psycholgocal hit with this abuse scandal than the US. Realize that, even though it is embarrassing for the Church, it is also an instance of severe hypocrisy on the part of the media, which does not care about sexual abuse of children unless it serves their political purposes. Case in point, the Planned Parenthood scandal which is breaking now and is being ignored as much as possible by the “watchdog” media. Unlike the Church scandal, this one is very wide in scope and regards current behaviors, not decades old incidents.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[Joan1969]

To clarify my last message, when I say the PP scandal is “wider in scope”, what I mean is that there is a much greater number of girls who have had their abuse covered up either by PP itself or by some other abortion group, as compared to those who were abused by priests as boys (or girls).

 

[Lamafacaja]

As institutions yes, and another post of mine explains why. Loss of faith in organised religion does not amount to rejecting teachings we believe to be true.

Well, I’d have to disagree with you there. It really makes no logical sense to my mind.

There are lots of people who believe in God and that Christ died for us but don’t belong to a Church because their experience of organised religion has left them scarred. Those who scarred them are more responsible than the person who looses faith. Jesus said they might as well have a millstone placed around their neck and be thrown into the sea.

What are you talking about? Child molestation scandals? Sure, those priests’ll be punished for it.

I do believe his words also contained a certain empathy for those who were ‘skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd,’ The Jews did not have the ‘wrong’ religion, but they had bad shepherds who organized religion for their own ends.

Empathy, yeah, because without the Church we’re all damned to hell.

 

[minkymurph]

Well, I’d have to disagree with you there. It really makes no logical sense to my mind.

It does to me and I’ve already answered this in another post.

What are you talking about? Child molestation scandals? Sure, those priests’ll be punished for it.

I’ve already answered this in response to another poster. Once I did, they did not necessarily agree with me but understood were I was coming from. I’m not going to answer the same question again.

Empathy, yeah, because without the Church we’re all damned to hell.

We’d better hope our leaders don’t fail then. Irrespective of the death and resurrection of Christ. Unless of course by ‘Church’ you mean something other than the leadership of the Church.

 

[Robert_Burns]

It’s much more serious than a blame game. People can be psychologically scarred and need the help of professionals, sometimes for years to come to terms with their loss of faith in organised religion. I think that’s a lot more serious than ‘it’s not my fault it was you.’

? I dont say this in a mean spirited way. You have taken considerable time to try to explain how you dislike “organized religion” (I Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that) But is it Organized Religion you dislike or is it the requirement of The Works you dislike.

It’s the lack of works I have a problem with.

I have several friends who are atheists. Some are close, some are not. Repeatedly telling someone a car is coming will not make someone get out of the way if they have no desire to do so. In addition, telling an atheist they should believe in God in order to avoid Hell is not a very persuasive argument. Is the only reason we believe in God future reward and escape from eternal punishment? I think there are more convincing arguments.

I agree. Problem is you don’t have to belong to an organised religion to pray.

Well your issues are not with Catholics , or even with the Church - your issues are with GOD himself. Like it or not GOD created the Catholic Religion and GOD organized the Catholic religion. So if you do not like his handiwork thats a you problem.

We can only tell you that the Church is not your enemy and the Churrch stands against immorality against those who question GOD’s Sovereignty - those who say there is no GOD those who live their lives the way they choose to live their lives irrespective of GOD and the Commandments and that this is never going to change. So really you have to make the decision whether or not you will believe or not believe. Now if you think that you are going to get to heaven by ignoring that which deep down in side you do know is true - I really dont have to tell you what you are doing is wrong. You already know. So whats left is for you to ascertain why it is you lost your faith and hopefully one day when you reach rock bottom spiritually - you think of GOD and his love for you which he proved on calvary.

I am not going to argue the merits of the Cross or even defend it to you - why should I? GOD has done everything sufiiciently to save those souls who really want to be saved. When a person wants to save their soul and it becomes the most important thing in their life - then they Seek GOD and when they seek GOD they eventually come to the Cross and one day it becomes apparent - that GOD didnt Die on that Cross in vain for them - that they choose to return to that burning love that GOD has for all men.

So you can do whatever you want to do in life - but what did you come to a Catholic forum to see? A bunch of catholics telling you that the choice you make is good? Charity for you prevents it. So know this - Salvation is there for you. Sanctifying grace is within your grasp - one good confession away. And it will be no matter how many sins or how many years you are away - it is right there - GOD’S Loving arms reaching out to you from the Cross. The choice is yours to make either today or 20 years from now - its not mine to make for you. GOD is patient.

When the going gets tough - your fair weather friends will be gone and you will be alone and facing eternity - what then? Who will be there fore you then?

Jesus.

And his Church.

It isnt going anywhere. You are the traveler. May your path be to salvation.

pax

 

[tandrew]

America is not perfect, does that mean its citizens should abandon her?

Better to abandon than become evil.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

To clarify my last message, when I say the PP scandal is “wider in scope”, what I mean is that there is a much greater number of girls who have had their abuse covered up either by PP itself or by some other abortion group, as compared to those who were abused by priests as boys (or girls).

By “PP” I assume you mean “Pedophile Priest”. This is a revolting term by anyone, especially a Catholic. Are you aware of the numbers? There is no higher statistical evidence of pedophila among Catholic priests than any other religion. The highest chance of a child being sexually assulted is in school. Do you use such a term for teachers? After a conviction, teachers are either transferred to another school or paid to stay home. Are you equally disgusted by this? The “pedophile priest” myth is perpetuated by the Church’s enemies namely the media and entertainment industry.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Better to abandon than become evil.

Are you suggesting the Church is evil?

 

[jeanannemarie]

What honor is there in a “faith” that rejects the greatest gift God ever gave man?
Jesus came to earth and sacrificed Himself for us to free us from our sins. Those that go to hell will do so because they have mortal sin on their soul. Jesus gave us redemption and the means to be freed from sin and combat evil through the sacraments and the Mass administered by His Church. If a man abandons the Catholic Faith he tosses the gift God gave him away. To those given much, much will be expected. Of course, God is always there waiting for him to come back. But how could we be so presumptious to think that God somehow owes us eternal life after we’ve chosen to go our own way and rejecting the way He ordained?
Like others have stated, some may be able to obtain Heaven by way of invincible ignorance. But the Church has always taught those that reject the life giving graces administered through the Church, Jesus body, will not inherit eternal life.
I seem to recall the Jews in the NT declaring, “we have no King but Caesar”
I pray that changes when they stand before their true King and judge.

Jam, I love the way you said that. Very well stated.

 

[minkymurph]

I agree. Problem is you don’t have to belong to an organised religion to pray.

I would whole heartedly agree with this statement. You don’t have to belong to an organised religion to pray.

Well your issues are not with Catholics , or even with the Church - your issues are with GOD himself. Like it or not GOD created the Catholic Religion and GOD organized the Catholic religion. So if you do not like his handiwork thats a you problem.

That’s a fair comment. No, my issues are not with Catholics or the Church. Depending of course on what you think the Church is. I think you have misread me in saying I don’t like God’s handiwork. It’s not God’s handiwork I have a problem with. It’s the human handiwork. By that I mean the image of God humans portray. I’m not convinced the image of God humans portray is who He really is. Rather, an image of God people would like him to be. As in, 'God doesn’t approve of anyone I disagree with.

We can only tell you that the Church is not your enemy and the Churrch stands against immorality against those who question GOD’s Sovereignty - those who say there is no GOD those who live their lives the way they choose to live their lives irrespective of GOD and the Commandments and that this is never going to change. So really you have to make the decision whether or not you will believe or not believe. Now if you think that you are going to get to heaven by ignoring that which deep down in side you do know is true - I really dont have to tell you what you are doing is wrong. You already know. So whats left is for you to ascertain why it is you lost your faith and hopefully one day when you reach rock bottom spiritually - you think of GOD and his love for you which he proved on calvary.

Again, fair comment. No,God is not my enemy and neither is the Church. I don’t think any of my post suggested I did not believe in God. God is the easy bit. Humans are the difficult bit. I don’t think I do ignore what deep down I believe is true. As far as loosing my faith goes, I have lost and regained it many times and I have been at rock bottom spiritually many times. I’ve no doubt I will be again. I don’t doubt God’s love for me. I doubt people’s love for me. People who preach love but it is not evident in their lives. I don’t mean failing. . It’s those who demand unconditional love from others and expect them to love when they don’t embrace unconditional love themselves. I don’t mean failing to love. Many times I fail to love in the way I should. It’s the 'I’m not going to love you unless you meet my expectations but don’t expect me to meet your’s I have a problem with.

I am not going to argue the merits of the Cross or even defend it to you - why should I? GOD has done everything sufiiciently to save those souls who really want to be saved. When a person wants to save their soul and it becomes the most important thing in their life - then they Seek GOD and when they seek GOD they eventually come to the Cross and one day it becomes apparent - that GOD didnt Die on that Cross in vain for them - that they choose to return to that burning love that GOD has for all men.

As I eluded to in another post. Is being Catholic all about avoiding Hell? Is that the soul purpose of being Catholic?

So you can do whatever you want to do in life - but what did you come to a Catholic forum to see? A bunch of catholics telling you that the choice you make is good? Charity for you prevents it. So know this - Salvation is there for you. Sanctifying grace is within your grasp - one good confession away. And it will be no matter how many sins or how many years you are away - it is right there - GOD’S Loving arms reaching out to you from the Cross. The choice is yours to make either today or 20 years from now - its not mine to make for you. GOD is patient.

My experience of Catholicism is exactly what you say here and it’s something that endeared me to Catholicism. No one ever said ‘of course it’s the right religion, you’re doing the right thing.’ I was presented with a choice. I can remember the priest who catechised me saying, ‘it’s not about being ‘right.’ it’s do you want to be a Catholic?’ The answer was yes, I did. However, I didn’t become a Catholic because I wanted approval from people.

When the going gets tough - your fair weather friends will be gone and you will be alone and facing eternity - what then? Who will be there fore you then?

Jesus.

And his Church.

It isnt going anywhere. You are the traveler. May your path be to salvation.

pax

I didn’t become Catholic because I wanted friends fair weather or otherwise. I lost a lot of friends when I became Catholic. I have already been in the position were the going got tough and I was alone. I do sense a great deal of sincerity in your words and I believe you don’t mean to condemn me as a person. You wouldn’t have said 'may your path be to salvation and pax if that was not the case. However, I don’t respond readily to scare tactics such as; ‘you’ll have no friends and go to Hell.’ Is that all the Catholic faith has to offer? I don’t think you mean it like that, but when people use those arguments, it can sound like scaremongering. I readily admit I could be reading something into your words you don’t mean. Happens to me all the time on these forums. I’m not saying my opinions, which is what they are right, but I’m confident that God knows why I struggle as I do in a way no one else could understand. I suppose I did expect to be slammed a bit on this forum for what I said, and why not? If it’s any consolation, I have got a lot out of this discussion. Can’t say much more without getting too personal.

 

[jeanannemarie]

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

But when you think like this, with suspicion of the leadership of the men of our Church, you are completely missing the supernatural component of the Church and reducing the Church to a man made institution, which it is NOT. The good news is that this is God. This is our salvation. You can believe that and it is indeed very good news, not a fairy tale.

 

[Chip_Barrett]

One true religion? How could it be otherwise? Even Paul answered this question “one Lord, one faith and one baptism”. Eph4:5

 

[JVSantos]

The Church does not have as much power as you think. Everything the Church provides is free and if you so wish to donate you can. People are free to leave the Church whenever they want and can choose to sin rather than follow the Church’s moral guide. The Church exists to preach Christ and His message in order to save souls. That is the business. While there are some bad clergy (they are human), MANY are selfless and give up so much for God, not for power.

What you fail to realize is the secular society has much more power over you than Church affairs. The Church can say something but if you do not submit your will it has no bearing over you. The state on the other hand tells you and you must do it. Not believing in God leaves you to be a product of the state…a sad sad reality. What’s worse is you becoming your own god, deciding what is good and bad based on your own feelings and judgements. I can’t help but remember the serpents words “…you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.” Deciding what is good for yourself and what is right for you makes you a slave to your own desires and wishes. They will never satisfy you my friend. They will only hurt you and draw you away from Christ and His Church. True freedom comes from a trust in God.

The Church is composed of men but the Church itself is not worldly. It is a divine institution. That is the main distinction you fail to observe.

Very clear, thank you!

 

[rben20]

Very clear, thank you!

shaw: