There is not a Catholic position on everything

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Rau said:
often such analyses will come down to prudential judgements, with the consequence that good and reasonable people applying the same principles can come to different conclusions.
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This in my experience is what drives people nuts.

"Here I am, trying to follow the Church rules and avoid sin by doing X. I’m sure X is the right thing to do in view of the Church teaching/ Catechism/ Canon law/ thing the Pope said/ thing the last 6 Popes said before we got Francis in here/ way the Church has been doing it for years.

Over there is Joe who is doing the exact opposite thing, Y. How can that not be wrong? I even told Joe he was wrong, I presented all my sources, and gave him a fraternal correction like we’re supposed to do. And yet he’s still doing Y and the priest is just letting him get away with it.

Why doesn’t the Church kick Joe out? People such as Joe, and the clergy who let him stay, are destroying the Church because obviously the rules don’t have any meaning anymore if members are just allowed to break them, or if the Church changes its 2000-year-old tradition all of a sudden to make Joe’s actions okay. "
 
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I don’t think people always ask these questions due to not wanting to use their own reason.

I’m one of the people that have asked similar to "what’s the Catholic Church position on…so and so " and my reason for asking is because although I was baptised a Catholic I lack a lot of understanding about the Catholic religion,I never heard of Catechism as a child (or even an adult really).

I’m the first person to say that people should use their own reasoning and make their own decision making etc but occasionally I have came across Catholic stuff that seems to discourage people using own reasoning.
Eg:I was reading on a Catholic website all the “ins and outs” (excuse the pun🙃) about sex in the Catholic religion like “masturbation” is ok but only if it ends in intercourse etc.

It’s great to say that Catholics should use their own reasoning but if this is the case then why does the religion have to have so much literal prescriptive “rules” even about love lives?
Why go into all that,why they don’t just say something simple like “sex in marriage should be loving and respectful and married couples should always be open to babies”.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
obviously the rules don’t have any meaning anymore if members are just allowed to break them,
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Well, I don’t know that the Church places too much weight on disciplining it’s members, even when the matter is doctrinal. Witness catholic politicians supporting abortion on demand. But I am not referring to doctrinal matters, and nor does the OP, but rather prudential matters, where I may reach a different conclusion than my bishop and remain in good standing.
 
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You’re right that the Church doesn’t really discipline people for prudential matters, and often not even for doctrinal matters unless it’s some very high-profile dispute like SSPX. I myself think that’s probably the right way to go. The Church is simply too big to keep up with many individual cases.

But I get the impression from reading CAF that many people think the Church should be doing a lot more “disciplining” over matters that may be prudential but that the people having this opinion consider either “doctrinal” or “important enough to discipline”. I myself don’t have this opinion, but it seems to be a major cause of concern for many others.
 
I have two thoughts. The first is the principle of unity in essentials, charity in all else. In other words, if the Church does not spell something out, take your opinion with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, coming from a background where everyone has to interpret everything for themselves, from what denomination to join and what church lines up with personal opinion, to every single moral point, it is nice not to have to work through absolutely everything, re-inventing doctrine and moral principles the Church has long established. With new technology and changing society, we have the Church both nationally and universally working through moral principles and how they apply. It is like having to build one’s house from tree and rock, or have a team of professionals build it.
 
I would just like to add if I may that I think it’s human nature to seek answers-even seeking a “right” or definitely answer.

For example you mentioned the situation that there could be two Catholics who see a person begging and could both make a difference decision which were both still “Christian decisions” -

One gives him/her money and the other doesn’t due to having the concern they will spend it on alcohol.

But according to Pope Francis, quoted in the below article, a person should give to the begging person regardless.

Personally i agree with him because regardless of the money,or where it’s spent,something else you might be giving them is love and a sense of worth because you are communicating with them.
Showing you care and treating him/her with dignity.

http://www.catholicnews.com/service...-always-give-homeless-a-handout-pope-says.cfm
 
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I like Pope Francis. I think he means well. I understand about dignity. I give to homeless charities, and I also have sometimes given to individual homeless people.

However, if I took his words literally, I would have to give money to an entire series of panhandlers outside a train station that I used to frequent, where these people would basically lay in wait and target folks coming out who they thought were “easy marks” because of how one was dressed, age, gender etc. Basically if you fit their “profile” of a possibly sympathetic person, they would pester you for money and leave the other people who didn’t fit their “profile” alone. (I would add that these people congregated at this station because there was a homeless shelter that took care of their basic needs about 2 blocks away.)

I would have to also give money to people who begged from me in situations (many) where I did not feel safe taking out my wallet or showing that I had any money on me.

Maybe I would be a much holier person if I just did what the Pope said, but I don’t feel safe or right about doing it, and I don’t think I have to do it.
 
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Interesting. Personally, no, I have not encounter a person like that but perhaps in CAF, there are probably some who sound like that.

I would see it in a positive light if the reason is wanting to live a Christian life.

Perhaps there’s underlying cause for such phenomenon - like unfamiliar with Catholicism itself.

I see not much reason for it to be an issue if one is already a reasonably practicing Catholic.

Then again, perhaps it also depends on one’s character as well. Some people probably are more concerned in doing the right things but unsure about them.
 
Not to mention that Copernicus discovered the Earth rotates around the Sun like 100 years previously.
And yet…
There is no Copernicus scandal!
 
I might also point out there are churches out there where figuring out the “right” position on everything whatsoever was very, very important. So you will see some of this among converts (such as myself) who are not always sure where the lines of what does and doesn’t have an official position are, because the lines aren’t where we’re used to them being.
 
I think I read somewhere else that Copernicus was also friends with the Pope or someone high up in the Church, who was friendly to his theories. Presumably, by the time Galileo came around, things had really changed.
 
I think I know the type of situations you mean.

I wonder in situations like these,should a person give to them because they may have a serious mental Illness that makes them have the mindset of targeting people (eg:is it a mental illness or just their personality that is making them “cunning”) or is a person doing a disservice to them by giving?

I think Pope Francis is right but right coming from his own world view and experiences.
Ie:he is living in Europe where he has had experiences there of homeless people begging and the type of homeless people there, and this may be different from homeless issues in America or Australia where it is not always just people or families made homeless due to losing job and being hard on luck.
The issues can be much more complex.

He is right that no one should justify to themselves about not giving by saying the homeless would have just spent it on alcohol etc but what in the instances when the persons motivation is not justification for their lack of generosity but rather concern for the homeless person?

It’s true that in some instances that bottle (or whatever) might be the only piece of happiness that a person has,but in other instances of extreme alcoholism or severe drug addiction,or even worse when there’s drug addiction during pregnancy, is it a disservice to give money to that person (providing we know with significant surety that they will use it for drugs) or is a person trying to “control their lives” and their situation by not giving to them?

A similar situation to what you mentioned I think is like Romanian gypsy beggars in Europe.
They are sometimes “trained” young as children to beg and there is often a very poor work ethic.
Should a person still give in this situation out of compassion or would you be helping them stay in their mentality by doing so?

Should a Christian feel sorry for the gypsy beggar because they know no better/different or would they be being a “sucker” /taken advantage of by giving to them?
 
We can think through 1,000,000 permutations of these situations, but in the end, Jesus would like us to act with both mercy and common sense. The Pope has 30 seconds to give a sound byte that basically says “homeless folks are people, too - be nice to them and not judgmental”. He says something that’s designed to make us stop, think, maybe be kind to the homeless person when we see them next. But the Pope in his current state in life is not exactly inviting homeless gypsies into his apartment at the Vatican to sleep on his floor, and I doubt he jumps out of the Popemobile every time he sees one to hand them a Euro. He’s using common sense too.

As to how we help them - there are 1,000,000 ways ranging from giving them a dollar, to giving the local homeless charity 20 dollars, donating to food banks, offering to buy the homeless person a meal, giving them a “blessing bag” with soap and toothpaste, just saying a kind word to them as we pass them on the street, finding one or two homeless people to regularly talk to and give to even if you don’t feel comfortable contributing to every one shaking a cup, etc. The point is that we do something. We took the Pope’s words into account.
 
Hi @BoomBoomMancini i do understand your concern,but i do believe that there is every answer and solution for every question in life under the sun, either through the Catholic Church and the Word of God the Bible,and the Holy Spirit ,his wisdom and Grace will always guide us and inspire us in every situation in life and Jesus promised us he will be with us alwaysMatthew 28:20.20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you;**and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.**Jesus maps our lives in every possible impeccable detail Ps 139:14 I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful.Wonderful are thy works!Thou knowest me right well;15 my frame was not hidden from thee,when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.
16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance;in thy book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,when as yet there was none of them.

God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”:29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:

God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
  • orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit"
BoomBoomMancini said:
“What’s the Church’s position on tinted windows for your car?” (I made that one up, just giving a slightly exaggerated example.)
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Answer to your Ist Q 1 Corinthians 6:12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything.(If your obsessed with tinted glass on your car window ,and fined or billed for your tinted windows for your car)
BoomBoomMancini said:
“Harry Potter”
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Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6
“If a person turns to mediums and wizards, playing the harlot after them, I will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 19:26
“You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.
 
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Naturally, the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church reject all practice of divination and sorcery. The Harry Potter books are fictional works, which portray magical practices fictionally
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (see Nos. 2116-17) talks about divination, and in Deuteronomy 18:9-12, going to fortune tellers and palm readers, among other things, is forbidden.

The Bible and the Catechism reject real sorcery, and forbid us from trying to call on demons, but again, that’s not what Harry Potter is – Harry Potter is a fictional story.

Search.

Here is the Church position on Occult (Harry Potter )
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...s/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, Yoga and so on.(15)
 
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