There is Still Something about Mary

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ChristianWAB said:
Put another way, if the statement “Mary was the mother of Jesus.” is true, why isn’t that enough? People can accept that when God took on the human form of Jesus, Mary gave birth to Him, but to say that Mary is the Mother of God is a little too generalized because the SAME God didn’t choose the SAME form throughout history.
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Whoa - Mary didn’t give birth to His “form” - she gave birth to Him - what came forth from her womb was His human body, His human nature, and His divine nature. He still has the same body that came forth from her womb - in fact, it was by ascending into Heaven in His human body together with His human nature and divine nature (hypostatic union) that He broke open the gates of Heaven and made it possible for human beings to be able to go to Heaven.

God has “appeared as” many different things - a pillar of fire and a pillar of cloud, a burning bush, a dove, etc. - but these were temporary and symbolic.

Christ’s humanity is permanent and real. Mary really is His mother.
 
ChristianWAB said:
The belief is accepted and that’s fine. Calling Mary the mother of Jesus does nothing to compromise that belief… and it won’t confuse people. Everybody wins. That’s my point in a nutshell.
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But it is the point of many posters here that your contention that your terminolgy won’t confuse people and that is just not true.

We can look back at history and see that many heresies sprung up from those who wished not to call Mary the mother of God and only call her ther mother of Jesus.

While you feel that it won’t confuse people, history shows that your belief is quite simply, false.

God Bless,
Maria
 
ChristianWAB said:
The belief is accepted and that’s fine. Calling Mary the mother of Jesus does nothing to compromise that belief… and it won’t confuse people. Everybody wins. That’s my point in a nutshell.
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Christian – Did you look up R. C. Sproul’s essay? Please do that. Baptist’s understand “Mother of God.” BAPTISTS! You’re like a one-man grief committee here. Go duke it out with the other Protestants.
 
mercygate said:
Do me a favor, Christian. Please. Pretty, pretty please? Go to R. C. Sproul’s website “Ligonier Ministries” and click around in there for information on this subject. R. C. is a card-carrying, nigh-onto-anti-Catholic, sola Scriptura/sola fide evangelical Presbyterian PROTESTANT. He gives the best talk on Mary’s title as Mother of God that I have ever heard.
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OMFG, I think I can explain myself better with an example.
 
ChristianWAB said:
See, there ya go.

A syllogism is used, but notice how you made the distinction in the second part, but not the third (conclusion).

1.) Mary is the mother of Jesus.
2.) Jesus is God the Son.
3.) Therefore… Mary is the Mother of God THE SON.
But you didn’t say Mary is the Mother of God THE SON, did you? No, you left that last part out. Why? Who knows?

…but what have we traditionally called God THE SON? We call him JESUS. If I were to use this logic, I could easily say that Mary is the Mother of the Holy Spirit.

Notice, though, that nobody ever says this.
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Sigh.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Happy?
 
ChristianWAB said:
Yes, because I think I have an example that may help people understand why so much confusion exists with a simple term.
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If it were simple, it would not have required an entire ecumenical council of the undivided Church to figure it out.

Did you read the Sproul essay? C’mon! work with us here. We’re not trying to convert you! This goes along with the Trinity as one of the basics of the faith.
 
mercygate said:
If it were simple, it would not have required an entire ecumenical council of the undivided Church to figure it out.

Did you read the Sproul essay? C’mon! work with us here. We’re not trying to convert you! This goes along with the Trinity as one of the basics of the faith.
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lol. No, I haven’t had a chance to hit the library yet to read it. I’m sure I’ll have an opportunity to check it out very soon though.

And on that thought, would calling Mary the mother of Jesus have required an entire ecumenical council? Probably not.
 
But then sorting out that Jesus actually was true God as well as true man, hypostatically united also required several councils and hundreds of years of fighting among heretics of various stripes. I trust you accept this as do the majority of Christians - it really is essential to the way we understand salvation to have been possible.

Would have been easier to say ‘oh we don’t agree on whether Jesus was fully human or fully divine or both, but to make it easy we’ll just say that he existed and that we follow him whoever/whatever he was’

Truth and fullness of understanding in such matters is often more important than agreement.
 
jmcrae said:
So, do we have to wait all day? Where is your example?
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Whoa, whoa! Easy there, Seabiscuit. 😃

I assumed everybody had lives to tend to outside of the internet that a little patience would have been a virtue. Geez Louise! lol

You might not have noticed it, but in Post #103, I typed out the four letters OMFG. In Post #104, mercygate didn’t come out and say anything negative, but asked if I meant to post what I did.

Though this is pure speculation, my guess would be that she interpreted “OMFG” in a way that doesn’t translate too nicely. It seemed to confuse her… and with good reason.
**Because, in all likelihood, mercygate probably didn’t know that, by OMFG, I meant, *“Offering myself for guidance.” *****
You see where I’m going with this? That post was my example – my example of how clarity in speech can aid in avoiding unnecessary conflict and confusion. You see, I used an abbreviated form of “Offering myself for guidance” by typing OMFG in the same way that some people type IMHO when they mean “In my humble opinion.” Some are already hip to the significance of IMHO; others aren’t.
**Had the eagle eyes been out this evening, everybody would have likely raised a stink (or even reported me) without so much as asking for clarification. People, by and large, are far more likely to assume the worst about somebody in situations like this. **
Some understand the full significance of the term, “Mary, mother of God.” just like some of my friends understand what I mean when I say “OMFG.” Others are quick to jump to an incorrect conclusion, based on what they believe to be the truth. When the wrong conclusion is reached, tensions manifest themselves and bitterness ensues. (…continued on next post).
 
**Now, I could have easily avoided any possible backlash from my post by typing out what I meant by OMFG. **
“So, why didn’t he just type** “Offering myself for guidance**” in the first place?”
**Good question,… and it’s ***precisely ***the nature of my “Why can’t Catholics just say, “Mary was the mother of Jesus?”” question. The truth is that Catholics could easily say Mary was the mother of Jesus, confuse nobody and still maintain the belief that Jesus is God the Son. **
**My point is that, in a world where religious conflict abounds, the solution isn’t to build more walls – it’s to tear down existing walls that don’t need to be there in the first place. If you assumed that OMFG meant something that I never intended it to mean, then you may start to understand how non-Catholics feel when you CHOOSE to say “mother of God” instead of “mother of Jesus.” **
**You have to understand that, to an outsider’s perspective, it seems that Catholics intentionally choose the more confusing statement and, in so doing, further separate themselves from the pack of people that are just as desperate to know the truth about God (if not more so) as you are. Some Catholics are knowledgeable to the point of arrogance and will spew off all kinds of esoteric sources to back their beliefs up. This tactic only fuels the hatred that so many have for Catholics and it serves to do nothing but separate us further. **
If the Catholic Church is a teaching church as I’ve often heard, then the goal of the church can NOT* just* be to teach – it must also be to avoid unnecessarily misleading or overbroad statements. One poster told me to go duke it out with the Protestants. In other words, just give up on a soul. What I’m trying to say doesn’t require councils or anything more complicated than common sense.

If one has to travel all the way to Asia Minor to the year 451 A.D. to gain an understanding of why it’s cool to call Mary the mother of God, then there’s a problem. On that note, a few have recommended some text to read, so I’ll hit the library sometime tomorrow morning and have a look-see. Maybe that author can explain why saying Mary is the Mother of Jesus is so wrong.

And people wonder why so many people raise a stink over Mariolatry. This is only the tip of a very large iceberg.

Now, I know that the urge to RIP apart my analogies is burning within several of you, but before you go dissecting as usual, try to see the big picture in all of this. Not every soul on earth knows every council that has ever convened to discuss these matters.
 
Calling Mary the “Mother of God” helps us to avoid at least two heresies that you have already promulgated - and I notice, by the way, that you haven’t responded yet to those who pointed them out to you.

The first being the heresy of Modalism, and the second being the Nestorian heresy that Mary gave birth only to Jesus’ human form and not to His entire being.

By using proper terminology, we avoid accidentally falling into heresy (as you have already done twice in this thread alone), which in and of itself is proof to me that it is in at least this sense, if not literally true, that it is Mary who protects us from heresy.
 
Calling Mary ‘Mother of God’ is not designed as deliberate confusion. Rather it relates directly to our beliefs as to Christ’s own nature.

If you don’t believe that Jesus is true God and true Man, hypostatically united, then salvation is impossible. Jesus HAS to have this nature for his sacrifice of himself to be both a suitable one for the sins of humanity AND sufficient to atone for all sins for all time.

IF you believe that Jesus has this nature than Mary must of necessity be the Mother of God as well as the Mother of Jesus. The only confusion is to people who deny the true nature of Christ, as you have shown with your own falling into heresies.
 
Here’s something that I think needs to be said, despite the fact that there are people who may flat out reject it. But this is importamt:
Saying that Mary is the Mother of God is not about Mary; it is about Jesus Christ & Who He really was.
I think this is the problem. It seems to be, people sometimes do not understand this. Mary was not declared to be the Mother of God in order to give her any new title, nor was it to put the emphasis on her at all.
At the time, &:rolleyes: continuing today, there is a tendency to downplay and/or distort the nature of Christ. Some say “just a good man”, some say “a prophet”, some say “a son of God, but not God”, some say “another God”. etc.
OK, all these ideas are floating around, & the ECFs see that people spiritual state & eternal destiny can well depend on understanding that Jesus Christ was God made flesh; He is the 3rd Person of the Trinity…
But how do you say that? It’s not like nobody has tried to explain, but the same old heresies keep popping up…Finally, after much prayer, study, & consulation, the realization is made, that everything hinges on “What Child is This, Who laid to rest, in Mary’s arms is sleeping?” Who **is **Mary’s Son? Who was her Son at His conception (& before), during the time He was growing in her womb, & Who was He when he was born in the stable of Bethlehem?
This is where the rubber hits the road! This is where all the false doctrines about Christ’s nature are exposed–because if Mary’s Child is anything less than God Himself, from the start to the finish of His earthly life…Well, frankly, we might as well go back to sacrificing black puppies to Hecate at a crossroads in the middle of the night, because if He is not God, He is either a liar or a madman… See, those are out choices.! No other s available.
So, the pronouncement is made, “Mary is the mother of God Himself”.
Now, I know a lot of people seem allergic to this language. But the words are important. Because there simply is no other way to state the truth about Jesus Christ than to say this. Anything else leaves us open to yet another round of heretical imaginings.
It really is just as simple as that!!
 
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