There is Still Something about Mary

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The old thread died:crying: in the Hackattack. What I would like to do is to do it over, knowing what I know now. Even better. New and improved. Yee haw!

For starters: I love the Blessed Virgin Mother, Mary the Mother of God! Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with You! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb - Jesus!
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death. Best Mom in the Cosmos! This thread’s for YOU!

So what is it doing in the Apologetics forum? Beats me. Think of a reason or it’s down the tubes.

I know! I know! People say Catholics don’t know the difference between hyperdulia and latria. What, they CRAZY? Can they tell the difference between a glass of water and the ocean? Or a flashlight and the sun? Or the sun and a mirror in which the sun shines?

Ok, here we go. Let the good times roll.
 
I know! I know! People say Catholics don’t know the difference between hyperdulia and latria. What, they CRAZY? Can they tell the difference between a glass of water and the ocean? Or a flashlight and the sun? Or the sun and a mirror in which the sun shines?
I disagree with your analogies! Especially the water one. In fact, I think this would be a better analogy for the difference between dulia and hyperdulia. Latria on the other hand, is of an entirely different species. And so I think a better analogy would be to compare the ocean (hyperdulia) to the Sun (latria). What do you think?
 
I disagree with your analogies! Especially the water one. In fact, I think this would be a better analogy for the difference between dulia and hyperdulia. Latria on the other hand, is of an entirely different species. And so I think a better analogy would be to compare the ocean (hyperdulia) to the Sun (latria). What do you think?
I think you are right. That’s what I think. Yep, yep, yep!
 
No it’s not we Catholics who fail to distinguish between worship which is due to God alone and the veneration permitted to His mother.

It’s the non-Catholics who, not having a sacrificial Mass in which the Eucharist transubstantially becomes Jesus, don’t have anything more to offer God than we do to Mary - in other words plain old prayer :yup:

In other words we don’t give too much to Mary - they don’t give enough to God :yup: :yup:
 
No it’s not we Catholics who fail to distinguish between worship which is due to God alone and the veneration permitted to His mother.

It’s the non-Catholics who, not having a sacrificial Mass in which the Eucharist transubstantially becomes Jesus, don’t have anything more to offer God than we do to Mary - in other words plain old prayer :yup:

In other words we don’t give too much to Mary - they don’t give enough to God :yup: :yup:
GREAT answer, LilyM.
I hope you don’t mind if I use that in conversation!
👍
 
No it’s not we Catholics who fail to distinguish between worship which is due to God alone and the veneration permitted to His mother.

It’s the non-Catholics who, not having a sacrificial Mass in which the Eucharist transubstantially becomes Jesus, don’t have anything more to offer God than we do to Mary - in other words plain old prayer :yup:

In other words we don’t give too much to Mary - they don’t give enough to God :yup: :yup:
No. Protestants do not honor Mary, the mother of Christ, like they should because they are scared of falling into excessive veneration and mariology as have the Catholics. So, the baby gets thrown out with the bath water to use the old cliche. On the other hand, Catholics venerate Mary to a degree not called for by Scripture and for which she is probably blushing in heaven as we speak…so to say.
 
No. Protestants do not honor Mary, the mother of Christ, like they should because they are scared of falling into excessive veneration and mariology as have the Catholics. So, the baby gets thrown out with the bath water to use the old cliche. On the other hand, Catholics venerate Mary to a degree not called for by Scripture and for which she is probably blushing in heaven as we speak…so to say.
I disagree. No matter how much we venerate her, it just doesn’t compare to the adoration we pay to God alone. Like I said above, it’s like comparing the Ocean to the Sun; they are two completely and utterly different things.
 
If a person loves Mary more than he loves Jesus, his problem is not that he loves Mary too much (since such a thing is not humanly possible) but that he does not love Jesus enough.
 
No. Protestants do not honor Mary, the mother of Christ, like they should because they are scared of falling into excessive veneration and mariology as have the Catholics. So, the baby gets thrown out with the bath water to use the old cliche. On the other hand, Catholics venerate Mary to a degree not called for by Scripture and for which she is probably blushing in heaven as we speak…so to say.

Agreed. Calling her​

  • a quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit
  • Saviouress
  • co-head of the Church
  • Coredemptrix
  • Mediatrix of all graces
    is not a matter of degree within a continuum of praise - it is praise of a wrongful kind, because it is too high for her; for it ascribes the work of Christ to her. She is too little, too lacking in reality, to receive such a “weight of glory”. One might as well expect an ant to carry Mount Everest on its back, as expect a creature to be able to receive what belongs to God alone. Only God can receive what belongs to God alone.
Creatures can be made sharers in the intercession of Christ, but some things that God does they cannot do - they cannot create. This is why the Mormon belief that Mary is a part-creator is impossible - God alone is able to create, because God alone is Omnipotent & Eternal.

IOW - some activity of God is communicable, & some is not. Catholic arguments for the activity of Mary seem never to make this essential distinction explicit - it needs to be explicit, because it is one of the things that distinguish the Infinite & Uncreated Holy God from finite, created, sinful man. Even a sinless creature is utterly other than God - the angels differ from God utterly, by the fact of their being created. Sin merely makes limitation (which is not evil) into a condition of evil.

To be Saviour at all, is as peculiarly a Divine work as is creation, for the same reasons. It requires infinite Holiness, infinite Mercifulness, infinite Power to forgive sins, Infinite power to atone - in short, infinite Love. Mere similarity to God, however great, doesn’t cut it. Jesus saves, and only He. Mary is as much a beneficiary of His saving power as we are - she is not a cause of the bringing of it into the world.

She brought into the world the Person Who brings it - but that does not mean she brings it. Any argument that tries to secure her a place as a cause of salvation, has to include the angel who greeted her, & her parents, and God her Creator, & every other person who was the cause of her being such as she was so that she believed the angel and his word. Which would leave us with her parents, St. Joseph, his parents, their ancestors, & the angel, all being part-authors of salvation. It would even include the serpent who decived Adam & Eve - but does any really believe the devil is in any sense the author of our salvation ? Catholic argument confuses causes which remove hindrances to the human conditions amid which we hear God, with causes which ensure we heed & obey Him. Mary has her place - but not as our Saviouress, nor as our Mediatrix, since mediation is also a work that God alone can do perfectly. At most, she is a mediator like Moses, but nothing more. Jesus is “the pioneer of our salvation”:

[Hbr 2:9 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=2&verse=9&version=rsv) But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.
[Hbr 2:10 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=2&verse=10&version=rsv) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
  • no one else. Bodily motherhood is in any case nothing without faith (as St Augustine points out).
The best way to honour Mary, ISTM, is by obeying Jesus. Why is her “Do whatever he tells you” not good enough ? Obedience to Mary’s God is surely the truest devotion to Mary, because it is a doing of what she says, and directs us to her Son, Our only Saviour & Mediator.

She is called “Salvatrix” (=Saviouress), & “co-head of the Church”, & “Coredemptrix”, in this essay, by a priest in good standing:

Ever since Adam Widenfeld, in his Monita Salutaria (n. 10), recorded his antipathy to the doctrine and the title, giving classic form to the modern bias against it, by quoting our Lady (falsely) as reproving the use of titles such as Salvatrix and Coredemptrix, defenders of the doctrine, even after its general recognition as part of the deposit of faith, have been bedeviled by a certain defensiveness about it.

That the author who quotes them could regard such titles as theologically tolerable, says a lot against the case he is making. Advocates for the titles in favour of which Father Fehlner argues, need to say where they stand in regard to the titles which he quotes. There is no room for the Church to have a co-head - it has & can have only one, Jesus Christ the Lord.

As for this:

On the resolution of this objection depends the concrete definition of the extent of her mediation: universal, antecedent to the completion of the work of redemption by the Redeemer, unique in respect to that of the Church and every other Saint; and the nature of spiritual motherhood: proper or metaphorical
  • are those who want to see this defined sure they do ? Scripture & most of the Christian tradition since the year 30 knows of Christ Alone as Redeemer. This title is absent from the NT, & the Fathers. And how is she in a any respect less than her Son in his mediatorial work, if her mediation is “antecedent to the completion of the work of redemption by the Redeemer” ? Either people do not know what they are defending when they compare her to a co-pilot, or else her mediation need not be understood as Father Fehlner understands. In which case, what does it mean ?
And how is this to be justified ? :

If Mary pertains intrinsically to the order of the hypostatic union, it is only logical to suggest with del Moral that she pertains intrinsically, as does no other person, to the order of his headship. The appropriateness of Del Moral’s term “co-headship” (with Christ over the Church) may be argued, for according to some it implies an erroneous coordination of Mary with Christ. But whether this term or some other is employed, his essential point is valid: with Christ and under Christ Mary forms, in virtue of their joint predestination, a single redemptive personality. Hence, like him, she is a public person, viz., one capable of meriting not only for herself, but for others “de condigno.” And if that merit is redemptive, she is Coredemptrix. We want to stress: Mary pertains in this unique way to the redemptive order in such wise as to merit condignly for others, because she pertains as no other to the order of the hypostatic union.

[my **emphases]

Holy Scripture knows of no redemptive personality but God alone. What is lacking to the work of God, that we must have a creatures as a cause of our salvation in this way ? It is this kind of thing that makes so many Christians look on the CC with disgust & horror 😦 ##
 
The old thread died:crying: in the Hackattack. What I would like to do is to do it over, knowing what I know now. Even better. New and improved. Yee haw!

For starters: I love the Blessed Virgin Mother, Mary the Mother of God! Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with You! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb - Jesus!
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death. Best Mom in the Cosmos! This thread’s for YOU!

So what is it doing in the Apologetics forum? Beats me. Think of a reason or it’s down the tubes.

I know! I know! People say Catholics don’t know the difference between hyperdulia and latria. What, they CRAZY? Can they tell the difference between a glass of water and the ocean? Or a flashlight and the sun? Or the sun and a mirror in which the sun shines?

Ok, here we go. Let the good times roll.
To make your analogy of the glass of water greater, just throw the glass of water in the ocean. It is God we honor when we honor Mary. Nothing Mary has is hers apart from God. Of course the analogy is not perfect.
No. Protestants do not honor Mary, the mother of Christ, like they should because they are scared of falling into excessive veneration and mariology as have the Catholics. So, the baby gets thrown out with the bath water to use the old cliche. On the other hand, Catholics venerate Mary to a degree not called for by Scripture and for which she is probably blushing in heaven as we speak…so to say.
You have no idea what it means to honor Mary. Read the first book of Augustines ‘On Christian doctrine’ where he discusses enjoyment vs. use. This is a good way to understand the honor of Mary and the saints. Our honor of Mary is all because of God. It has nothing to do with Mary apart from God. We honor and love her as we do because she is an extreme icon of Christ, she was Christs greatest disciple, and God fealt it good to honor her as His ark. When we honor Mary we are honoring God. As Augustine said, when you love your neighbor you should love them entirely for Gods sake. Not for their own sake. When we honor Mary we honor her for Gods sake.

It is protestants who have no idea what it means to worship as Lily said. A protestant views worship as simply praying. A Catholic views worship as sacrifice. We offer the sacrifice of ourselves and the sacrifice of the mass(Christ’s sacrifice). That is the worship of God; the complete self sacrifice even unto death.
 
No. Protestants do not honor Mary, the mother of Christ, like they should because they are scared of falling into excessive veneration and mariology as have the Catholics.
As Billy Graham says “As a reaction to Catholics, Protestants pay far to little attenion to Mary.”
On the other hand, Catholics venerate Mary to a degree not called for by Scripture and for which she is probably blushing in heaven as we speak…so to say.
How dare you?

May we have your opinion of Eucharistic adoration?
 
Jesus taught his disciples to pray to Our Father and in John 16 as well.

Why do Roman Catholics ignore Jesus’ advice and pray to all sorts of saints, when Jesus’ instruction was so clear?
 
It is protestants who have no idea what it means to worship as Lily said. A protestant views worship as simply praying. A Catholic views worship as sacrifice. We offer the sacrifice of ourselves and the sacrifice of the mass(Christ’s sacrifice). That is the worship of God; the complete self sacrifice even unto death.
Protestants don’t limit worship to prayer. Prayer is certainly a component of worship, as are other things such as song, reading of the Word and the Eucharist. The problem is not the worship of God, but an over-emphasis on Mary.
 
How dare you?

May we have your opinion of Eucharistic adoration?
How dare I WHAT? Say that Catholics’ veneration of Mary is to a degree that is unscriptural and that Mary herself is probably embarrased by that? As I noted, Protestants do not pay her the honor she is due as the great saint she is. We fall into this trap because we are trying to avoid the example before us of Catholic veneration that is unscriptural (read Gottle of Geer’s post above…he said it better than I could). Catholics fall into a different trap.

Eucharistic adoration? Again, unscriptural. The blood and body are being offered for the communion of the saints during the communion of the saints.

As stated in the 39 Articles,

“The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.” (Article 25) …,and,

“The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was not by Christ’s ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.” (Article 28).

carm.org/creeds/39.htm
 
Eucharistic adoration? Again, unscriptural.
Do you have a religious official preside over weddings? Why? Unscriptural! Do you say vows? Why? Unscriptural! Does your Bible have a table of contents? Why? Unscriptural!

Some things just logically follow, that’s why.
As stated in the 39 Articles…
Citing CARM. For shame. :tsktsk:😉

Out of curiousity, what do you do with the wafers that aren’t eaten if you don’t “reserve” them? Do you simply toss them in the garbage?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Protestants don’t limit worship to prayer. Prayer is certainly a component of worship, as are other things such as song, reading of the Word and the Eucharist. The problem is not the worship of God, but an over-emphasis on Mary.
The problem isn’t praise and worship, the problem is a lack of sacrifice. Specifically, the lack of a pure sacrifice.

Mal 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
How dare I WHAT? Say that Catholics’ veneration of Mary is to a degree that is unscriptural and that Mary herself is probably embarrased by that? As I noted, Protestants do not pay her the honor she is due as the great saint she is. We fall into this trap because we are trying to avoid the example before us of Catholic veneration that is unscriptural (read Gottle of Geer’s post above…he said it better than I could). Catholics fall into a different trap.
As a “refugee from the Episcopal Church” you might find Cardinal Newman’s observations helpful. He understood that the dogmas concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary were not essentiially tied to the popular devotions, which (certainly in the 19th Century) had often taken on a character that was distasteful to English sensibilities. He accepted the dogmas, and traced them back to the early Church as appearing simultaneously in Asia, Gaul, and Jerusalem, thus giving them global authority. Even as a Catholic, he never developed a taste for flamboyant, devotional “mariolatry.”

“The writings of St. Alfonso, as I knew them by the extracts commonly made from them, prejudiced me as much against the Roman Church as anything else, on account of what was called their ‘Mariolatry.’ Such devotional manifestations in honour of our Lady had been my great crux as regards Catholicism; I say frankly, I do not fully enter into them now. I trust I do not love her the less, because I cannot enter into them. They may be fully explained and defended: but sentiment and taste do not run with logic; they are suitable for Italy, but they are not suitable for England.”
Eucharistic adoration? Again, unscriptural. The blood and body are being offered for the communion of the saints during the communion of the saints.
As an Episcopalian, I frequently attended Benediction and Adoration in my parish . . .
As stated in the 39 Articles,

“The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.” (Article 25) …,and,

“The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was not by Christ’s ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.” (Article 28).

carm.org/creeds/39.htm
Have a look at Newman’s Tract 90 on the wider interpretation of the Sacraments. He wrote it before he left the Anglican Communion. If you are a “refugee from the Episcopal Church,” you seem not to have been exposed to the full wealth of your own sacramental Tradition.
 
Out of curiousity, what do you do with the wafers that aren’t eaten if you don’t “reserve” them? Do you simply toss them in the garbage?
Good question. From my experiences in the Episcopal Church, the consecrated wine is usually finished by the Priest. I’m not sure about the wafers, probably the same, but it is not something I have personal experience with.
 
Good question. From my experiences in the Episcopal Church, the consecrated wine is usually finished by the Priest. I’m not sure about the wafers, probably the same, but it is not something I have personal experience with.
Don’t answer this if it’s too personal, but how long were you an Episcopalian? The regs require either consumption of the elements in their entirety or reservation in an aumbry (that’s a cupboard Anglicans who don’t want to be overly Katholick use if they don’t have a tabernacle).

We had shrines to Our Lady and our Patron. My parish had a centrally placed tabernacle, vigil lamp, and a life-size statue of Jesus the Sacred Heart above the taberncle. I learned all my Catholic theology in the Episcopal Church. 👍
 
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