There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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The bottom line. Your faith is based in a religious institution built upon the rock of a man and his apparent successors. My Faith is based on the promises of God revealed in His Holy Scriptures. And we both know it is impossible for God to lie. I will take the Word of God over the teachings of men any day of the week.

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Apparent apostolic succession
Actually, the bottom line is that your faith is in two men, Martin Luther and John Calvin. My faith is Christ and his word, faithfully proclaimed in his Church, the Catholic Church, which has an unbroken succession from the Apostles. Clear and simple. Catholics follow Christ. Protestants follow the traditions of men.
 
Actually, the bottom line is that your faith is in two men, Martin Luther and John Calvin. My faith is Christ and his word, faithfully proclaimed in his Church, the Catholic Church, which has an unbroken succession from the Apostles. Clear and simple. Catholics follow Christ. Protestants follow the traditions of men.
John 3:3

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”



There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
 
He altered the words from Scripture?
We love all of the Scriptures!

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

For God So Loved the World

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ

After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (for John had not yet been put in prison).

Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease.”

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. 🙂

 
And what, pray tell, does it mean to be born again of water and the Spirit?

Oh, no, I just prayed to Reformed.
 
And what, pray tell, does it mean to be born again of water and the Spirit?

Oh, no, I just prayed to Reformed.
Maybe Jesus is speaking of our physical birth (water) and our spiritual birth (Spirit)? Or He could be speaking of:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-joy-water-elephant.jpg

Psalm 35:9

Then my soul will rejoice in the Lord,
exulting in his salvation.
 
Maybe Jesus is speaking of our physical birth (water) and our spiritual birth (Spirit)? Or He could speaking of:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-joy-water-elephant.jpg
Ot, maybe, he was talking about BAPTISM!
 
Ot, maybe, he was talking about BAPTISM!
Baptism done by the Spirit and not by men (Romans 6). Please look at this verse again.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules
 
:rolleyes:
Most Definitely.
This is a baptism done by the Spirit and not by men (priests and pastors). Consider the Holy Scriptures for truth. 🙂

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, [3] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 2

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
 
The early Church certainly did that and they unanimouly upheld baptismal regeneraton. This was unchallenged until John Calvin. I find it strange that your undertsanding of this essential truth was not only absent, but completely contradicted for over 1,500 years.

God bless,
Michael
Yep … good thing Calvin came along to fix what the Holy Spirit couldn’t get right.

michel
 
We love all of the Scriptures!
I’ll say that you like to cut-n-paste scripture more than you like to read or understand it.

If you love all scripture, then answer the questions about the scripture where Jesus gives men the ability to forgive sins.

Is this practice found in your church?

then answer the question about Jesus beginning a church.

michel
 
Baptism done by the Spirit and not by men (Romans 6). Please look at this verse again.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules
Do you fully realise that your postion was heretical until you guys left? Even then, most Christians still hold it as such.

There is no conflict between your verse and the Truth. The Baptism IS NOT a baptism by men, as Paul said “there is ONE baptism.” We baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as commanded by Jesus. The work of baptism is done by that same Spirit. It washes away original sin, makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, and gives us the gift of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

What you want to say is that baptism does not matter. This is not the Biblical understanding of it. What you are trying to do is to create a situation where God is wrong because your theology is.
 
Because we all know in part according to the Apostle Paul. God is infinite and I just laugh at the claim of papal infallibilty and Rome being “The One True Church”. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, because there is a remnant inside the walls of Rome whom Christ died for.
They laughed at Jesus, too, so your laughter isn’t exactly helping your case.
 
Do you fully realise that your postion was heretical until you guys left? Even then, most Christians still hold it as such.

There is no conflict between your verse and the Truth. The Baptism IS NOT a baptism by men, as Paul said “there is ONE baptism.” We baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as commanded by Jesus. The work of baptism is done by that same Spirit. It washes away original sin, makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, and gives us the gift of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

What you want to say is that baptism does not matter. This is not the Biblical understanding of it. What you are trying to do is to create a situation where God is wrong because your theology is.
I never said that obedience to the command to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not matter. What I am saying that water baptism is not how God regenerates the sinner. How many people do you know in the Roman Catholic Faith who were once baptized and are no longer practicing Catholic Christians? Do you see the parallel between circumcision and baptism? Both are considered sacraments and commands of God. Do you really think your infants are born again after water baptism in the light of John 3?

Romans 2

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
 
I never said that obedience to the command to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not matter. What I am saying that water baptism is not how God regenerates the sinner. How many people do you know in the Roman Catholic Faith who were once baptized and are no longer practicing Catholic Christians? Do you see the parallel between circumcision and baptism? Both are considered sacraments and commands of God. Do you really think your infants are born again after water baptism in the light of John 3?

Romans 2

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
You just won’t let it go. At any point in time, anyone can deny Jesus. Even those who walked with him did it. The work of Baptism is not one that man cannot fight. There is no time at all that any follower cannot turn away, and God will let them walk. Now, he will always take them back, if the return, but the door is always open.

I know lots of everythings that change faiths or fall from grace. That is called being a human with free will.
 
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