There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

Lets all take a look at Romans 2:5-11.

I think you should understand Romans 2:5-11 in context with the entire book of Romans. In addition, we should understand the Apostle Paul in context in all of his epistles. Here is another verse by the Apostle Paul which we can know that we are secure in Christ because of God. The reason God will finish the work in us is for His own glory and name sake…to the praise of His glorious grace.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

I think you should understand Romans 2:5-11 in context with the entire book of Romans. In addition, we should understand the Apostle Paul in context in all of his epistles. Here is another verse by the Apostle Paul which we can know that we are secure in Christ because of God. The reason God will finish the work in us is for His own glory and name sake…to the praise of His glorious grace.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And we should understand Paul in the context of Jesus’s teachings.

 

[Reformed]

And we should understand Paul in the context of Jesus’s teachings.

Agreed, we should understand the sayings of Jesus and epistles of Paul in light on the entire Holy Scriptures. We cannot understand Paul without the rest of the Bible. Likewise, we cannot understand the sayings of Jesus without the rest of the Bible.

In all kindness, I think your posting on #35 almost seems you are proclaiming a works righteousness salvation. How obedient do we need to be to be saved? What happens if you are obedient your entire life, and are disobedient to day before you die and do not repent? Actually, the Bible teaches that God requires a perfect obedience to enter Heaven because God does not grade on a curve. Since we all sin and fall short of the glory of God as non-Christians and Christians alike, what are we going to do? Who will rescue us? Have you heard of the term of “entering the rest in Christ”? How do you understand Christ as being your Sabbath’s rest? What is your understanding when Jesus proclaimed on the cross “it is finished”?

You added more to your post after I posted mine, but no matter.

What the CAtholic Church teaches IS what Scripture says. YOur doctrine is backwards according to the Bible.

My faith uses what Jesus told his followers supported by Paul, not what Paul said supported by Jesus. In order to properly understand Paul, we must look at what Jesus said first. Jesus made it clear that it was a daily job to follow him. WE are to first deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him. Should we fail at any one of those three, we are no longer with him. We will be known as his followers by our love for each other, not by what we say we believe, for many will cry “Lord, Lord” and not enter the kingdom. Those who will be allowed in will be those that feed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, and all of those things he listed in Matthew, as well as being born again of Water and the Spirit. WE have eternal life within us when we eat his Bodya nd Drink his Blood. That said, Paul cannot say that once we follow Jesus we are in. You must answer this: can you defend 100% of your reformed theology without quoting Paul? I can do so with the Catholic Faith.

Paul himself would say “look to Christ first, as Paul did not die for you. You are not baptised into Paul.” Paul was Catholic through and through. It is clear when you read Paul AFTER the Gospels that he was. It is when you look at Jesus after taking Paul as the authority that you get messed up.

Romans 8:28-34

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

I think we view things radically different due to our mutually exclusive understanding of the biblical doctrine of justification.

 

[ralphinal]

Agreed, we should understand the sayings of Jesus and epistles of Paul in light on the entire Holy Scriptures. We cannot understand Paul without the rest of the Bible. Likewise, we cannot understand the sayings of Jesus without the rest of the Bible.

True enough, although as a Christian, that which Christ said should be first and foremost, even without him being God.

In all kindness, I think your posting on #35 almost seems you are proclaiming a works righteousness salvation. How obedient do we need to be to be saved?

As holy as God is Holy.

What happens if you are obedient your entire life, and are disobedient to day before you die and do not repent?

Well, John teaches that there is sin which leads to death and sin which does not lead to death.

Actually, the Bible teaches that God requires a perfect obedience to enter Heaven because God does not grade on a curve. Since we all sin and fall short of the glory of God as non-Christians and Christians alike, what are we going to do?

Repent daily and lead a sacremental life. Not everyone sins every day. That is a pessimistic view. There are people who go weeks between sins.

Who will rescue us? Have you heard of the term of “entering the rest in Christ”? How do you understand Christ as being your Sabbath’s rest? What is your understanding when Jesus proclaimed on the cross “it is finished”?

Obviously, sin was not finished, as we all still sin. What was finished was the great divide between God and man that could not be crossed. The need for a sin offering was over. The Gates of Heaven were to be opened. The work of beginning a Church was finished. I have never heard of Christ as “Sabbath’s rest.” I have heard of him as task master and as being in the yoke with me. The question is do you understand that Jesus equates faith with action? “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” and he will send the sheep to heaven for doing good while the goats are damned for not.

Romans 8:28-34

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Satan means “accuser” in the Hebrew. He will stand before God and accuse of our sins. Those that we have repented of, because of Christ, cannot be held against us. Those that we do not repent of will. Can the elect sin? If not, then the idea that all have sinned and fallen short is not correctly understood. If so, then your position is off.

I think we view things radically different due to our mutually exclusive understanding of the biblical doctrine of justification.

There is truth is this. Justification is the state of being that all are in because Christ paid the price for our sins. Now, once we have been justified, we are called to sanctification by acting upon the grace God grants us. It is like a man building a subdivision. The land must be cleared and developed with roads and such. Then people must build on it. You must have both. Jusitification means nothing if we do not accept God’s grace, just like developing the land is worthless if no one builds. Sanctification is futile if we are not justified, just as building is not possible if the land is not ready. Just as the builders did not choose the land to be developed, we do not choose to be justified. We can, however, choose to live a life that acts upon the Grace of God.

 

[reen12]

The point is moot. There was no ‘condemation’ to begin with.
That is a Christian doctrine, wholly at odds with the
dominant teaching of God’s chosen people.

Original sin - from which one is purportedly ‘saved,’
does not exist.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Original sin was posited by Saul of Tarsus,
because he knew that no savior was awaited…
because the God of Israel is savior of all.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

One is not required to convert to Judaism.

If one acknowledges the one God, and keeps
His name sacred, while following the natural law,
there is room in His heart and a place in the
world to come.

messiah = ‘the anointed’ [as was King David]
messiah does not = ‘savior’

reen12

 

[justinthemartyr]

I believe this is the heart of our division: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I personally don’t see much faith and confidence in most Roman Catholics in regards to this one simple truth. This needs to be received to grow in affections for our amazing Triune God. I particpate on this forum so all of us will grow together in our love for God through the truth of His Holy Word. Our religious affections is the key in our Christian battle within ourselves. We remove religous idols of our hearts through the sanctifying truths of God’s Holy Word (John 17:17). Embrace the truth of no condmenation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The real soul searching question should be “have you really been united to Christ”? That is a question all professing Christians should ask themselves, regardless of your church affiliations. To examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith is taught in the Bible.

Here is the verse in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

• Rom 8

Hence the words “in Christ Jesus”

If someone is in the grace of God and has not fallen from it, then there is no condemnation for them, but for those who have fallen and have not repented and confessed their sins, judgment and condmenation exist for them.

This all comes down to the fact that scripture make it clear that one’s personal standing IN christ can be lost due to disobedience through knowingly sinning.

 

[Reformed]

Hence the words “in Christ Jesus”

If someone is in the grace of God and has not fallen from it, then there is no condemnation for them, but for those who have fallen and have not repented and confessed their sins, judgment and condmenation exist for them.

This all comes down to the fact that scripture make it clear that one’s personal standing IN christ can be lost due to disobedience through knowingly sinning.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God as Christians too. I don’t understand what degree disobedience seperates those who are united to Christ? I still believe God requires perfect obedience to be united to Christ. How can God grade on a curve since God is Holy? If perfect obedience is required for both the non-Christian and Christian, where can we obtain this perfect obedience? We are calld to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, strenght, soul, and strength and to love our neighbor’s as ourselves. Do you really believe someone is able to keep this commandment for one full day perfectly in our current condition?

 

[Reformed]

Obviously, sin was not finished, as we all still sin. What was finished was the great divide between God and man that could not be crossed. The need for a sin offering was over. The Gates of Heaven were to be opened. The work of beginning a Church was finished. I have never heard of Christ as “Sabbath’s rest.” I have heard of him as task master and as being in the yoke with me. The question is do you understand that Jesus equates faith with action? “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” and he will send the sheep to heaven for doing good while the goats are damned for not.

.

Do you think the Sabbath is a picture of Christ. How about this passage in Holy Scirpture?

Hebrews 4

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,

“They shall not enter my rest.”

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Reformed]

The point is moot. There was no ‘condemation’ to begin with.
That is a Christian doctrine, wholly at odds with the
dominant teaching of God’s chosen people.

Original sin - from which one is purportedly ‘saved,’
does not exist.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Original sin was posited by Saul of Tarsus,
because he knew that no savior was awaited…
because the God of Israel is savior of all.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

One is not required to convert to Judaism.

If one acknowledges the one God, and keeps
His name sacred, while following the natural law,
there is room in His heart and a place in the
world to come.

messiah = ‘the anointed’ [as was King David]
messiah does not = ‘savior’

reen12

Please read and study Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11 in regards to the physical descendants of Abraham (Jews of the flesh). Also please consider Romans chapter 2 for the true Jew.

 

[Reformed]

If you think Paul needs to be understood in the sayings of Jesus, pelase consider the Apostle Peter and his total confidence in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ:

Born Again to a Living Hope

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

The Apostle Peter’s Epistle from the Holy Scriptures

 

[cazayoux]

But Paul was convinced that nothing in all creation (including ourselves) can seperate us from the love of God in Christ. Even Jesus promises us that we cannot be lost once we are in Christ. Please go back to my post and read the additional Scriptures. Your post added additonal conditions to Paul’s answer to the quetion of “what must I do to be saved?”. Do you want to believe what God promises in the Scriptures or the teachings of your church?

Reformed …

In post #19 you gave 2 Pet 1:1-15 to proof assurance.
I highlighted in post #23 all of the qualifying ‘if’-statements in the scripture tied to an action for us.
You replied in post #24 John 15:1-17 as additional proof of assurance.
I highlighted in post #28 the qualifying ‘if’-statements in the scripture tied to an action for us.

You have yet to address what these qualifiers tied to our own actions mean.

Please … let us vet the scripture you shared so that we can more fully understand them.

Hit-and-run is not a good way to discuss such an important issue.

michel

 

[Reformed]

Reformed …

In post #19 you gave 2 Pet 1:1-15 to proof assurance.
I highlighted in post #23 all of the qualifying ‘if’-statements in the scripture tied to an action for us.
You replied in post #24 John 15:1-17 as additional proof of assurance.
I highlighted in post #28 the qualifying ‘if’-statements in the scripture tied to an action for us.

You have yet to address what these qualifiers tied to our own actions mean.

Please … let us vet the scripture you shared so that we can more fully understand them.

Hit-and-run is not a good way to discuss such an important issue.

michel

It comes down to monergism and synergism. Roman Catholicism, Arminian Protestantism, Mormonism, and all other world religion are a form of synergism.

Here is the monergism position: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Here is the synergism position: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus IF you are able to cooperate with God all the way to your death bed.

Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh – giving rise to a delight in His Word – all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ. The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Eze 11:19, also 36:26) The Apostle Paul said, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the “germination” of the Holy Spirit. And again “…you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” (1 Pet 1:23)

The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:

“In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration.”

It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to us through regeneration – and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignores the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, “…Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved.” and “…he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5) And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

It is in contrast to synergism which the Century Dictionary defines as

“…the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives.”

monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

 

[Reformed]

In regards to salvation, a Roman Catholic posted that “there is no free lunch”. I understood that as salvation has to be merited by us by our personal efforts through the help of God. I too agree that “there is no free lunch”. However, I believe the Scriptures teach that Christ fully paid for the price of my lunch. Christ completely secured Heaven by His perfect obedience to the Father’s will for those whom the Father has given Christ to rescue from their sins. The Holy Spirit will appply the work of Christ in the lives of elect sinners that all those chosen before the foundations of the world will be saved to the praise and glory of God alone.

It comes down to monergism and synergism. Roman Catholicism, Arminian Protestantism, Mormonism, and all other world religion are a form of synergism.

Here is the monergism position: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Here is the synergism position: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus IF you are able to cooperate with God all the way to your death bed.

Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh – giving rise to a delight in His Word – all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ. The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Eze 11:19, also 36:26) The Apostle Paul said, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the “germination” of the Holy Spirit. And again “…you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” (1 Pet 1:23)

The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:

“In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration.”

It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to us through regeneration – and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignores the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, “…Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved.” and “…he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5) And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

It is in contrast to synergism which the Century Dictionary defines as

“…the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives.”

monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

 

[Reformed]

In regards to salvation, a Roman Catholic posted that “there is no free lunch”. I understood that as salvation has to be merited by us by our personal efforts through the help of God. I too agree that “there is no free lunch”. However, I believe the Scriptures teach that Christ fully paid for the price of my lunch. Christ completely secured Heaven by His perfect obedience to the Father’s will for those whom the Father has given Christ to rescue from their sins. The Holy Spirit will apply the work of Christ in the lives of elect sinners that all those chosen before the foundations of the world will be saved to the praise and glory of God alone. God will save all He intends to save because God is completely sovereign in all things including the redemption of whom He chooses to save.

 

[steve_b]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God as Christians too. I don’t understand what degree disobedience seperates those who are united to Christ? I still believe God requires perfect obedience to be united to Christ. How can God grade on a curve since God is Holy?

Has no one shown you the list of sins scripture warns, that will keep one from inheriting heaven? That’s as serious a sin as one can comit. Scripture says God still loves the sinner but they WILL be seperated from God in the end, if they die with these sins still on their souls.

BTW, Scripture does not say these sins are automatically forgiven or that there will be no condemnation, just because one THINKS they are “in Christ.” If one comits these sins by definition if they WERE “in Christ”, they are no longer “in Christ” until they rid their soul of that sin.

reformed:

If perfect obedience is required for both the non-Christian and Christian, where can we obtain this perfect obedience? We are calld to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, strenght, soul, and strength and to love our neighbor’s as ourselves. Do you really believe someone is able to keep this commandment for one full day perfectly in our current condition?

When one falls, there is a scriptural way to get rid of the really bad (mortal) sins, and a way to get rid of the less serious sins (venial). Has anyone shown you where that distinction is in scripture?

 

[cazayoux]

It comes down to monergism and synergism. Roman Catholicism, Arminian Protestantism, Mormonism, and all other world religion are a form of synergism.

You still have yet to address what the conditionals mean (in the scripture you provided) and why they are tied to our own actions.

There is no contradiction with this scripture and the theology that all grace and justification comes from God.

michel

 

[Reformed]

Has no one shown you the list of sins scripture warns, that will keep one from inheriting heaven? That’s as serious a sin as one can comit. Scripture says God still loves the sinner but they WILL be seperated from God in the end, if they die with these sins still on their souls.

BTW, Scripture does not say these sins are automatically forgiven or that there will be no condemnation, just because one THINKS they are “in Christ.” If one comits these sins by definition if they WERE “in Christ”, they are no longer “in Christ” until they rid their soul of that sin.

When one falls, there is a scriptural way to get rid of the really bad (mortal) sins, and a way to get rid of the less serious sins (venial). Has anyone shown you where that distinction is in scripture?

Has the Roman Catholic Church change its list of mortal sins? I thought mortal sins used to include excommunication, divorce, leaving the Catholic Church, etc? Please make your case for mortal sins and the list you are talking about in the light of Scripture.

 

[Reformed]

You still have yet to address what the conditionals mean (in the scripture you provided) and why they are tied to our own actions.

There is no contradiction with this scripture and the theology that all grace and justification comes from God.

michel

I’m sorry my friend, a lower view of the person and work of Christ on behalf of sinners will reduce your joy in the Lord, and love for God. God saves sinners in spite of themselves, because God is much greater than my weakness to sin against Him.

2 Corinthians 12

I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Have you heard of the transforming powerful grace of God. It has the power to changed wretched sinners into the image of Jesus Christ to the praise and glory of God alone!

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

 

[cazayoux]

All Glory to God and I rejoice in all I have and do because any of it that is good comes from Him.

You still have yet to address what the conditionals mean (in the scripture you provided) and why they are tied to our own actions.

2 Peter 1

1:1 Simeon [1] Peter, a servant [2] and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Make Your Calling and Election Sure

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

If we do not make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue will we be ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Scripture says Yes.
You say no.

If we do not practice these qualities, will we fall?

Scripture says No.
You say Yes.

John 15:1-17
15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, **unless you abide in me. **5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, [1] for the servant [2] does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

If we do not abide in Him will we be cast forth like a branch into the fire?

Scripture says yes.
You say no.

For all of these conditional statements (which you provided the scripture for), your theology is against scripture.

We agree on the sufficiency of Christ and his sacrifice, yet you deny what Christ said we must DO to cooperate with the grace we are given.

I’ll bet that you will not answer what the conditionals in these scripture references mean to you, rather you will give additional scripture to divert the conversation away from this point. The point that you do not agree with clear scripture showing that we have an action for which we are required.

michel

 

[steve_b]

Has the Roman Catholic Church change its list of mortal sins?

Scripture is clear on mortal sin

reformed:

I thought mortal sins used to include excommunication, divorce, leaving the Catholic Church, etc? Please make your case for mortal sins and the list you are talking about in the light of Scripture.

Case for Mortal vs venial sin:

All wrondoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly. There is sin that is deadly(mortal) and sin that is not deadly(venial) The deadly variety (mortal) John doesn’t recommend praying about, unlike non deadly venial) sin for forgiveness. [1 Jn 5:16…]

deadly sins are those that keep one from heaven if one dies with them on their soul. Which ones does Scripture list?

Deadly (mortal) sins, those that keep one from heaven

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness

Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin remains for THEM who miss mass.

Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

Romans 16:17 those whi divide and cause division don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Paul further includes division in with those who won’t inherit heaven. [gal 5:19-21]

Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5: 22 inciting one to anger
Matthew 15: 18 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander

All These sins one shouldn’t pray about as John says. They are deadly.

These need sacramental confession from a priest, [whose sins you forgive they are forgiven…]