There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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Reformed said:
http://www.borealforest.org/world/mammals/wild_boar.jpg

Let’s all take a long break and try to reflect what we are saying to each other. I will try to wait until this evening to check this thread. Our Great Triune God is glorious and worthy of all of our praise and affection. God is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant. 👍
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Unfortunately, you have demonstrated in this thread, over and over again, that you do not worship the God of the Bible, but an idol of your own making. How sad.
 
East and West:
First, you are dodging the issue. Nice try but I won’t allow it. You first need to address the fact that Jesus taught that necessity of baptism for salvation.
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Where?
East and West:
Second, it was the universal practice of the Church to baptize infants from the very begining. It was the protestant “reformers” who were the cause of innovation.
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Perhaps the innovation belongs to the early church?
East and West:
Third, God is merciful and just. Of course an infant is not capable of belief. But does that mean that he will whithold his grace from them? NO! This is the God who says “let the little children come to me.” This is the God who adopted infant males into the family through circumcision even though they were incapable of making a covenant with God. Rather, the parents stood in the place of the Child and made the covenant with God.
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What of the girls?
East and West:
Likewise, in the new Covenenant, the parents stand in the place of the Child and have the child baptized.
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Where in Scripture is this illustrated?
East and West:
By the baptism and the faith of the parents the infant is born again.
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What if the infant doesn’t want to be born again? Where’s your insistence on free will choice? Doesn’t that make the infant a “robot?”

East and West said:
I can’t believe you would even suggest that God would withold his grace from an infant.
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Purely emotional appeal based upon your “feelings.”
 
Reformed said:
The apostates were never united to Christ. The Bible calls them tares and goats. Without receiving the truth of the invisible church within the visible church, you will walk in fear.
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Are there false professors in the visible Church? Yes! Do all false professors leave the Church? Not necessarily. Or does lifetime membership in a church mean you are not a false professor?

Second of all, you are assuming that because there are false professors in the Church, that all apostates are false professors. That is not the case. Let’s take a look at Hebrews 6 again:

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

All of the qulaities listed are attributes of true Christians (“enlightened”, “tasted the heaveny gift”, “made partakers of the Holy Spirit”, repentance). And let’s also add "sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Hebrews 10:29). " There is no significant spiritual or internal difference between a false professor and an unbeliever who has never made a profession of faith. But the key in the above passage is verse 6. The words “renew” and “again” mean to renovate or repeat something, in this case “repentance.” In other words, the above group had repented in the past. You will probably argue that false repentance is what is meant. That makes no sense. Why would we want a person to be renewed again to false repentance? Add to this the following verse:

Ezekiel 18:24

**24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. **

Ezekiel 33:13

13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

These passages describe the justfied, for it is God Himself who describes them as righteous and reaffirms this by saying “he shall surely live”, a phrase used by God in Ezekiel to express divine approval or forgiveness.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Reformed said:
Here is the question. Are all who participate in water baptism regenerated with the sacrament of baptism? Was Simon Magus regenerated because of his baptism?
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A false professor cannot be regenerated through the sacrament.

God Bless,
Michael
 
sandusky said:
Where?

Perhaps the innovation belongs to the early church?

What of the girls?

Where in Scripture is this illustrated?

What if the infant doesn’t want to be born again? Where’s your insistence on free will choice? Doesn’t that make the infant a “robot?”
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Purely emotional appeal based upon your “feelings.”
I promise to answer all of your questions when i get home form work. Quick and easy answer to the last one. “Emotional appeal based upon your feelings.” You mean like Protestantism?
 
ralphinal said:
No answer?
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One more for the list of questions that Deformed has not answered or likely will not answer.

When it gets to the nitty-gritty, he sees the cracks in his theology.
Rather than admit it and have open discussions, he will launch into cut-n-paste of the same snipits, still refusing to see what the texts actually say.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
One more for the list of questions that Deformed has not answered or likely will not answer.

When it gets to the nitty-gritty, he sees the cracks in his theology.
Rather than admit it and have open discussions, he will launch into cut-n-paste of the same snipits, still refusing to see what the texts actually say.

michel
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http://www.srichinmoybooks.com/meditation_and_spirituality/god_is/cross_sunset1.jpg

1 Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 🤷
 
Reformed said:
Do you think Simon was born again after being baptized? I think he is evidence that water baptism does not regenerate a sinner.

Acts 8

Simon the Magician Believes

But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” 11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles [2] performed, he was amazed.

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall [3] of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
25 Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
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Your problem with understanding and appreciating the situation with Simon the Magician is because of two things:
  1. You are not taking scripture at its face value.
  2. You are superimposing your doctrine on the text.
Jesus says this about belief and baptism:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”[Mark 16:16]

In Acts I:13 we learn this about Simon the Magician:

“Even **Simon himself believed, and after being baptized **he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.”

Simon is not called a false believer or a false professor. Scripture says that he was a believer and that he was baptized. He meets the criteria stated by Jesus. To suggest that he was not regenerated is to superimpose your doctrines on the scriptures rather than letting the scriptures explain the truth to you.

The Holy Spirit comes to us in baptism, but the Holy Spirit can also come upon us in other ways and at other times. We see this in both the OT and the NT. An example in the NT is when Peter who had already received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost receives the Holy Spirit again in Acts 4. In that passage we are told that Peter and John are arrested and brought before the high priest and the elders. When questioned by them Peter is ready to respond when scripture says, “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them,…”[Acts 4:8] Receiving the Holy Spirit on an occasion separate from baptism does not mean that we do not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. One does not preclude the other.

What happened to Simon is that he was tempted and he had a lust for the power that comes through the laying on of hands. He is even willing to pay for that power with money, and it is then, and only then, that he is rebuked by Peter. Peter’s warning to Simon frightens him. He realizes that his sin may have eternal consequences and asks that Peter pray that none of this would happen to him.

Justification and regeneration can be lost. There is nothing in scripture that indicates that a believer cannot leave the household of God. It is by the gift of grace that we have faith and are freed from committing sin. We can reject that gift and leave the household. We can leave the household to live a life of sin and dissipation in the flesh.
 
Reformed said:
CONDUCT RULES
…
…

1 Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 🤷
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Right you are. Charity must rule our discussions.
 
Pax said:
Your problem with understanding and appreciating the situation with Simon the Magician is because of two things:
  1. You are not taking scripture at its face value.
  2. You are superimposing your doctrine on the text.
Jesus says this about belief and baptism:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”[Mark 16:16]

In Acts I:13 we learn this about Simon the Magician:

“Even **Simon himself believed, and after being baptized **he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.”

Simon is not called a false believer or a false professor. Scripture says that he was a believer and that he was baptized. He meets the criteria stated by Jesus. To suggest that he was not regenerated is to superimpose your doctrines on the scriptures rather than letting the scriptures explain the truth to you.

The Holy Spirit comes to us in baptism, but the Holy Spirit can also come upon us in other ways and at other times. We see this in both the OT and the NT. An example in the NT is when Peter who had already received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost receives the Holy Spirit again in Acts 4. In that passage we are told that Peter and John are arrested and brought before the high priest and the elders. When questioned by them Peter is ready to respond when scripture says, “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them,…”[Acts 4:8] Receiving the Holy Spirit on an occasion separate from baptism does not mean that we do not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. One does not preclude the other.

What happened to Simon is that he was tempted and he had a lust for the power that comes through the laying on of hands. He is even willing to pay for that power with money, and it is then, and only then, that he is rebuked by Peter. Peter’s warning to Simon frightens him. He realizes that his sin may have eternal consequences and asks that Peter pray that none of this would happen to him.

Justification and regeneration can be lost. There is nothing in scripture that indicates that a believer cannot leave the household of God. It is by the gift of grace that we have faith and are freed from committing sin. We can reject that gift and leave the household. We can leave the household to live a life of sin and dissipation in the flesh.
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Scripture is silent about the fate of Simon the Magician. Maybe traditon can help us understand what happened to him? According to my source of extra-biblical tradition, Simon the Magician was an apostate heretic who brought false teaching into the church. What does your tradition say about the fate of Simon?
 
Naturally Simon is not well thought of, but there is nothing definitive taught about his final place in eternity.

It would seem that Simon went his own way and was extraordinarily vain. So much so, that this has been said about him:
He afterwards left the East, and went to Rome, under the reign of Claudius. Sts. Justin, Irenæus, and others say, the senate adored him as a divinity. Having undertaken to fly in the air, in the presence of the emperor and senate, when he had raised himself to a certain height, he was brought down by the prayers of Sts. Peter and Paul, and died a few days after, of the wounds he received by the fall.
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This isn’t a very hopeful outcome for someone that believed and was baptized. I would agree with you…it appears that he was a total apostate.
 
Pax said:
Naturally Simon is not well thought of, but there is nothing definitive taught about his final place in eternity.

It would seem that Simon went his own way and was extraordinarily vain. So much so, that this has been said about him:

This isn’t a very hopeful outcome for someone that believed and was baptized. I would agree with you…it appears that he was a total apostate.
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In light of the thread topic and the idea of baptismal regeneration, I would state that he was a professor but never united to Christ. If you go back to the bible verse, he never gave us indication that he was regenerated.

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall [3] of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.

and contrast that with the Apostle Paul

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”.
 
cazayoux said:
You are right. It was a mistake to do that.
Please accept my apology. Please forgive.
I will not do it again.

michel
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Thank you for your apology. Of course I fogive you. I am a great sinner. Hey, check out this Scripture passage:

Colossians 3

Put On the New Self

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
 
mikeledes said:
Repeating that verse will not make your interpretation of it true. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
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Of course this verse is true: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

But who’s interpertation will grow our affection and love for God? Who’s interpertation seems to glorify God in what He has done in Christ for us sinners? I cannot embrace a theology which does not magnify the person and work of Christ as a perfect and complete work…to the praise of His glorious grace. That really is the bottom line. God is so glorious, and whatever He does is perfect and to be marveled at.

2 Thessalonians 1:10

… when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
 
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