There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[cazayoux]

This is a misconception. No man is given such power in that the power now organically resides in the man and he uses it at will. Men can be used by God (conduits) to perform His power through them, but they are not given the power.

Agreed. The power is God’s and from God. The power is not *from *the apostles.
The apostles did heal and perform miracles.
In no way do I suggest they thought what they did was from anyone but God.

Jesus didn’t give them an itinerary for when to use this God-given power.
There were not merely puppets.
The apostles decided when it was necessary … likely through prayer.
God did the healing through the Apostles.

It is the same for the apostles forgiving or retaining sins.
So would you say that God forgives sins through the apostles?

michel

 

[Reformed]

Has anyone heard the gospel explained as the

“GREAT EXCHANGE” ?

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

 

[Philthy]

Nowhere does Paul teach that the believer is freed from “committing” sin. That is your own added concept. Paul states that the believer has been “freed from sin” having been co-crucified with Christ, co-buried with Him and raised to new life “in Him.” …He is “freed from sin” having died with Christ to it and raised to new life in/with Him.

Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”

How are the dead in hell freed from sin in the sense that you mean it? I dont think this supports your position.

Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

How is being freed from sin in the sense that you mean it a juxtaposition of being a slave? I dont think this supports your position.

Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Ibid - being a slave means that you are to carry out the work of another. That other is God. Furthermore, what’s the point of revealing our positional standing with respect to God? Are we supposed to do something with the information or do nothing with it?

 

[Philthy]

No. Actually He doesn’t say if you forgive the sins of any they will be forgiven. If you retain the sins of any they will be retained. He says they “have been,” as in, have previously been. This carries the sense of proclamation.

You’re missing a step in my logic because you add a step of your own (confession).

Please reconstruct the entire sentence with your personal interpretation starting with “If you forgive…” Im not sure what it means to say, “If you forgive the sins of any they have been forgiven”. Are you saying the Apostles were given the gift of infallibility with respect to the forgiveness of sins - that they would correctly forgive those who God had already forgiven? Should we sin all the more that grace may abound and thereby demonstrate the message of salvation by faith alone?

 

[M0nkey]

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This Scripture is telling us how God will build His Church upon the Rock of Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Catholics believe that you must use Scripture to interpret Scripture, and that passage along with what Jesus said to Peter gives us the full Truth of what this means.

Remember, any time Jesus speaks in the Gospels, it is no mere mortal speaking. This is God, in the flesh speaking.

 

[Reformed]

This Scripture is telling us how God will build His Church upon the Rock of Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Catholics believe that you must use Scripture to interpret Scripture, and that passage along with what Jesus said to Peter gives us the full Truth of what this means.

Remember, any time Jesus speaks in the Gospels, it is no mere mortal speaking. This is God, in the flesh speaking.

LOL! You sound like a staunch Protestant with a few exceptions. I love the Apostle Peter revealed in the Scriptures. I just think Rome created an imaginary Peter, and certainly a different one than the Peter found in the Scriptures alone.



So, what’s with the name M0nkey?

 

[Pax]

What does it mean to be a new creature in Christ? What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in effectiveness of being transformed? Please consider the book of Hebrews too.

…
…

The passages you quoted are prophetic texts foreshadowing the New Covenant. The apply much more to the New Covenant than they do the Jewish people of the time. Let me illustrate this.

Let’s compare Ezekiel with the Book of Acts.

OT-- Baptism prefigured
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Compare this to ACTS 2:37-39

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Going statement for statement we see an unmistakable pattern and prefiguring in Ezekiel and it is clear that God will use water to cleanse us (forgive our sins), that he will change our hearts (and they were cut to the heart), and that he will put a new spirit within us(we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.) And finally “you shall be my people and I will be your God.”(the promise is to you and your children…whom the Lord our God calls to him.)

The Jews remained under a custodian in the law which had no power to save or to enable them to avoid sin. In the New Covenant we are empowered by the Spirit to live in holiness and to escape the life of sin.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Pax]

This is an erroneous statement:

Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”
…
…
Nowhere does Paul teach that the believer is freed from “committing” sin. That is your own added concept. Paul states that the believer has been “freed from sin” having been co-crucified with Christ, co-buried with Him and raised to new life “in Him.”

…
…
​

The very quotes you provided utterly refute your contention that the regenerated man is not freed from commiting sin. Unfortunately, you fail to see all of the connections in Romans that prove the point because everything in your understanding is driven, governed, and defined by your doctrine.

There is obviously more meaning in all of this than you claim. Please note the following statements from Jesus, John, Paul, Peter, and from the Book of Acts that help make my point. Before reading these, please re-read the quotes in your own post sans your incomplete commentary.

John 8: 31-36
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, “You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6: 6
We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:14-16 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 Jn 3: 4-9
Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

Acts 13:39
by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

1 Peter 4:1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God.

Grace frees us from sin. The language above and elsewhere in the NT frequently uses the terms “slave” and “slavery” in regards to sin. The justified are “freed” from this slavery to sin, and Jesus makes it clear as do the other writers that this refers to being freed from “committing sin.”

This is scripture…I did not make this up. It is not “my added concept” as you have claimed.

.​

 

[Pax]

Has anyone heard the gospel explained as the

“GREAT EXCHANGE” ?

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

I haven’t heard it explained this way, but I see the direction you’re going by way of 2 Cor 5:21.

 

[moondweller]

How are the dead in hell freed from sin in the sense that you mean it? I dont think this supports your position.
How is being freed from sin in the sense that you mean it a juxtaposition of being a slave? I dont think this supports your position.

Ibid - being a slave means that you are to carry out the work of another. That other is God. Furthermore, what’s the point of revealing our positional standing with respect to God?What you say here, Phil, doesn’t even address the subject.

Are we supposed to do something with the information or do nothing with it?

​

 

[ralphinal]

What you say here, Phil, doesn’t even address the subject.It’s called divine revelation, Phil. It’s revelation concerning the believer and Christ. Divine truth that’s addressed to faith alone. If you’re not a true believer you’re to do nothing with it - it doesn’t pertain to you. If you are, you’re to believe it. If you can’t understand it, then you’ve got a problem - a BIG one (1 Cor. 1:14).

God is revealing that there’s far more to the cross than just a religious symbol. And the resurrection of Christ is not just an historical event celebrated at Easter. It actually accomplished something for the believer that could not be known except by divine revelation.

I don’t always agree with you, but I think I do on this one.

 

[mikeledes]

The verse states absolutely NOTHING about confessing sins to them. That concept is read into it.

Can you show me examples where the Apostles went around hearing the sins of Christians and subsequently forgave them their sins or retained them?

Let me post this again:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Nope. Doesn’t say everyone who confesses his sins, but everyone who “believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Doesn’t at all look like the Apostolic message was, come to me, confess your sins and BE forgiven, but rather BELIEVE in Him and your sins ARE forgiven. They proclaimed Christ not themselves.

In reading church history it looks to me like men began to distort this Apostolic message of Christ quite early.

Upon your history of confession, how many of your sins has your confessor retained? And for what reason? If so, does he not have the power to send you to hell? And if he retained a venial sin does he not have the power to keep you in purgatory forever? Only he would have the power to release you.

Can you explain how apostles retain sins?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

The very quotes you provided utterly refute your contention that the regenerated man is not freed from commiting sin. Unfortunately, you fail to see all of the connections in Romans that prove the point because everything in your understanding is driven, governed, and defined by your doctrine.

There is obviously more meaning in all of this than you claim. Please note the following statements from Jesus, John, Paul, Peter, and from the Book of Acts that help make my point. Before reading these, please re-read the quotes in your own post sans your incomplete commentary.

John 8: 31-36
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, “You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6: 6
We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:14-16 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 Jn 3: 4-9
Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

Acts 13:39
by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

1 Peter 4:1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God.

Grace frees us from sin. The language above and elsewhere in the NT frequently uses the terms “slave” and “slavery” in regards to sin. The justified are “freed” from this slavery to sin, and Jesus makes it clear as do the other writers that this refers to being freed from “committing sin.”

This is scripture…I did not make this up. It is not “my added concept” as you have claimed.

.

And yet none it states that anyone is “freed from committing sin.” That’s still your own concept. And a concept that flies in the face of reality.

 

[mikeledes]

Hearty amen to that one. Though we come from different traditions; confessions, as well as Holy Absolution is biblical, and apostolic; and it does remit sins.

A Christian truth taught for 1,500 years prior to the Reformation and upheld by faith alone Martin Luther himself and Lutheranism.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

Can you explain how apostles retain sins?

God Bless,
Michael

I already addressed this. How many of your sins has your confessor retained? And where does it even say he has to tell you if he has retained them?

For that matter, that verse doesn’t even demand that your confessor tell you that your sins are forgiven.

Bottom line, the whole concept of confessing sins for forgiveness is read into that verse.

 

[moondweller]

I don’t always agree with you, but I think I do on this one.

Thank you!

BTW, I always laugh when I read your signature. Very clever, indeed.

 

[ralphinal]

Thank you!

BTW, I always laugh when I read your signature. Very clever, indeed.

Thanks.

My signature on my personal e-mail is latin “Nemo audit Ralphum.”

No one listens to Ralph

 

[Reformed]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -
Let’s try this from the words of Jesus Christ. All those whom the Father gave to Jesus to save will remain in Jesus Christ. Consider the Holy Scriptures for insight.

I Am the Bread of Life

… Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

• John 6

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, those whom the Father foreknew, those who were chosen before the foundations of the world to the praise of His glory.

http://www.stjamesjc.org/Gallery/Webmaster’sGallery/t_11.jpg

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - The Holy Scriptures

 

[mikeledes]

I already addressed this. How many of your sins has your confessor retained? And where does it even say he has to tell you if he has retained them?

For that matter, that verse doesn’t even demand that your confessor tell you that your sins are forgiven.

Bottom line, the whole concept of confessing sins for forgiveness is read into that verse.

To retain sins means to deny absolution if the confessor has a good reason to believe the person is truly not repentant.

John 20:23

**23"If YOU forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if YOU retain the sins of any, they have been retained." **(NASB)

23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (NIV)

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The passage does not say "If you proclaim forgiveness of sins to one who sins have already forgiven, they have been forgiven and if you proclaim a person’s sins as having not been retained, they have been retained. It says if you forgive sins, if you retain sins. It is not a passive proclamation of forgiveness or retention of sins, but an active forgiving or retention of sins. And they cannot do that unless someone confess their sins to them first.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. -
Let’s try this from the words of Jesus Christ. All those whom the Father gave to Jesus to save will remain in Jesus Christ. Consider the Holy Scriptures for insight.

That presents no problem to Catholic theology. All those given by the Father for glorification will come to Christ and none will be lost. It’s just a variant of the passage from Romans 8. All those predestined for glory will be called, justified, glorified. The problem is that not all of those who are justified are predestined to glory, as illustrated by passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.

God Bless,
Michael