There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[TriuneUnity]

So God forces it upon us?

No. But if He did, so what? I should complain that God has redeemed me though I willfully cursed Him and raised my fist to Him?

 

[Reformed]

No. But if He did, so what? I should complain that God has redeemed me though I willfully cursed Him and raised my fist to Him?

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.



19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Rom 9

 

[Cinette]

FOR REFORMED

CAZAYOUX posed a question to you more than once and I have been looking out for your response. You are either avoiding the question or you are unable to do so. Which is it?

1. Can God give power to others?
2. What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

:bowdown: Please answer :bowdown2:

 

[Reformed]

FOR REFORMED

CAZAYOUX posed a question to you more than once and I have been looking out for your response. You are either avoiding the question or you are unable to do so. Which is it?

1. Can God give power to others?
2. What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

:bowdown: Please answer :bowdown2:

Can the other Calvinists please answer for me? I just came in the house and need to spend the evening with the family. I’m going fishing in the morning. :grouphug:

 

[Cinette]

Can the other Calvinists please answer for me? I just came in the house and need to spend the evening with the family. I’m going fishing in the morning. :grouphug:

I would advise you to cast your net wide. Who knows - you might just become a fisher of men!:extrahappy:

 

[thirdn6]

And expect to catch both good and bad.
Who knows - some of these bad ones will convert and become great members of the Church. These ‘fishes’ have hearts, too.
Some don’t want to be cast out to hell.
(I’m speaking with a Catholic mind and just passing by…)

 

[Cinette]

And expect to catch both good and bad.
Who knows - some of these bad ones will convert and become great members of the Church. These ‘fishes’ have hearts, too.
Some don’t want to be cast out to hell.
(I’m speaking with a Catholic mind and just passing by…)

Yes our “fisherman” is avoiding answering a question that was put to him TWICE, passing the buck to other “Calvinists” and going fishing!!!

:tsktsk: :crying: :tsktsk: :banghead: :dts:

 

[zerinus]

I believe this is the heart of our division: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I personally don’t see much faith and confidence in most Roman Catholics in regards to this one simple truth. This needs to be received to grow in affections for our amazing Triune God. I particpate on this forum so all of us will grow together in our love for God through the truth of His Holy Word. Our religious affections is the key in our Christian battle within ourselves. We remove religous idols of our hearts through the sanctifying truths of God’s Holy Word (John 17:17). Embrace the truth of no condmenation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The real soul searching question should be “have you really been united to Christ”? That is a question all professing Christians should ask themselves, regardless of your church affiliations. To examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith is taught in the Bible.

Here is the verse in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

• Rom 8

James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

zerinus

 

[cazayoux]

I would advise you to cast your net wide. Who knows - you might just become a fisher of men!:extrahappy:

I was going to suggest that the fish are already caught and in the net, no point for them to decide to take the bait or not.

hehehe …

sorry … just a little Calvinist humor.

michel

 

[PerryJ]

God only created one man…

If he controls all he created all.

If He doesn’t, everyone is in trouble, and evil is meaningless and without purpose…

So evil has a purpose; therefore, it is a good?

The scriptural statement is that men damn themselves.

How do men damn themselves if God decreed everything? He created universe to create a series of events that would create that person and the environment in which they would have to choose. How does a man damn themselves if everything is designed for him to be damned.

From before time. If Adam’s transgression is outside of God’s decree, then God is not sovereign, but contingent, and God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge as the Christian believes, and God is not in control of everything, but only some things, and He’s not worthy of the Christian’s trust.

Exhaustive knowledge does not mean double predestination. The ability to control and the act of controlling are not the same. Calvinism merges the ability to control and the act of control into one event. As God’s thoughts are actions this would at first appear to be reasonable; however, it is based upon the thought that his will is to control. His thought or essence could be that he could control; yet, chose not to from the begining of time. He created man to have free will and allows man to exercise that control. With the full knowledge of what will occur; yet, not force the occurence. Again the ability to control is different than the act of control.

 

[sandusky]

TriuneUnity:

This is true only so long as justification is present. If justification is lost, then obviously, the person is again dead in their transgressions and sins. The person must be, through faith, restored to justification.

There are no passages in scripture clearly stating that this or that person has lost God’s “justification”—justification being an unearned gift to begin with, and one given to the detestable and undeserving sinner, it makes little sense that if one is so vile that he has not the ability to earn salvation, he somehow will become even more vile than before while under God’s grace and protection and lose salvation.

Rather than beginning with the emphasis that justification is based upon God’s freedom and will, and working down to man’s helplessness and inability to take hold of it, the one who posits a loss of salvation centers his argument around man’s freedom and will, and works his way to God—it’s all about him, and what he does, and God’s will and choice is soon forgotten.

Once stimulated by grace, according to the losers of justification, and once appropriated by the sinner, justification leaves the purview and realm of God and becomes a joint effort in which man grasps the prize, and must then, by his good behavior and aided by grace, carry the prize to its completion and collect his reward. Various verses are cited in support of this, but most of are taken out of context, and when put in context demonstrate that the work taking place behind the scene carrying all things to their end originates in the will of the Cause of all things .

We have from the Lord, teaching that one can lose faith (Lk 8); however, that begs the question: is that faith spoken of by the Lord in that teaching a faith justified by God? I don’t think so.

The primary statement concerning justification defines it as a certainty that runs from the foreknowledge of God (an intimate love of God towards the justified) in eternity, to the glorification of the justified by God in eternity. **those whom God foreknew, He also predestined; and those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.**The grammar of that passage links all of the stages together such that they cannot be separated.

It’s notable that within Paul’s statement no mention is made that ”some of those justified, He also left to their own free will to obtain glorification.

So the least that can be said of the elect in this life, is that they are now justified, or will be at some future point. Furthermore, should the justified forever lose God’s justification, they also lose the calling by which they were called, the predestining by which they were predestined, and the foreknowing by which they were foreknown all of which posits an absurd thwarthing of God’s will making His promises suspect.

The idea of a loss of justification is deduced from warnings and admonitions in the epistles, and from allegorical teachings in the Gospels.

The general course the argument takes is that the epistles are written to believers, therefore, the warnings of justification’s loss is a fact for believers; however, that argument is flimsy in that it assumes that everyone in the Church is justified, a notion based, more likely than not, on the linking of justification with baptism, at least, in those systems that link justification with baptism. We know, however, that among the wheat reside tares resembling wheat.

TriuneUnity:

Unfortunately, Calvinism cannot logically account for the passages mikeledes has addressed except to say that the person was never justified.

Beginning with one verse:**John 6:44

“No one has the ability to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags him; and I will raise him up on the last day.**Those given to Christ are justified (cf Rom 8:30), and the Father has charged the Son with the responsibility of raising up the justified on the last day.

The idea of Christ failing any of the justified is unthinkable.

TriuneUnity:

So, essentially, the person with a troubled conscience is reduced to looking inward for assurance of faith…which is the exact same problem that Calvinists criticize Catholics for (looking to works for assurety of faith).

I’ve never counseled a troubled Catholic; however, I do counsel, and the primary things to which I direct those with a troubled conscience are the greatness of God, and His promises.

A believer’s heart may condemn him, and cause him to doubt, however, his actions, coupled with God, and His promises are greater than a doubting a heart:**1 John 3:18-20

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him

20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.**God is greater than doubt.

 

[Reformed]

I was going to suggest that the fish are already caught and in the net, no point for them to decide to take the bait or not.

hehehe …

sorry … just a little Calvinist humor.

michel

We caught some nasty sinners this morning. I guess it was predestined.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I understand. But there can only be One True Church in the world of One True Churches. Is the One True Church

1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
2. Orthodox Church
3. Roman Catholic Church
4. All those who are united to Christ and will be united to Christ (invisible church to man, but visible to God).

I pick number 4.

The claim of the Eastern Church: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy

If the Church was not visible to man, it would not be a Body. St. Paul would have been better off describing it as the Spirit of Christ.

What Scripture do you use to support your notion that the Church is invisible?

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

If the Church was not visible to man, it would not be a Body. St. Paul would have been better off describing it as the Spirit of Christ.

What Scripture do you use to support your notion that the Church is invisible?

Love is Patient

The Church is both visible and invisible. The best scriptures are the parable of Jesus about the wheat and tares, sheeps and goats. The visible Church is the professing church. The invisible church are all who makeup the wheat and sheep with the exclusion of the tares and goats.

 

[Cinette]

So my friend Reformed is back! Hmmmmmm…??


By the way Reformed I am beginning to associate you with a boar - do you think you could present us with a prettier picture?

 

[East_and_West]

The Church is both visible and invisible. The best scriptures are the parable of Jesus about the wheat and tares, sheeps and goats. The visible Church is the professing church. The invisible church are all who makeup the wheat and sheep with the exclusion of the tares and goats.

Or perhaps both wheat and tares are in the visible church and there is no need to further complicate the matter.

 

[East_and_West]

No. But if He did, so what? I should complain that God has redeemed me though I willfully cursed Him and raised my fist to Him?

So what? That is a complete violation of the freedom he has given us. Its an insult to the gift he has given us to choose. He says that he “stands at the door and knocks.” He does not break in. What you are talking about is tantamoun to divine rape. I am sorry, but my God is above that.

 

[East_and_West]

You are using a different definition of free will then I (and probably Calvinists) would use. It really should be addressed as moral will, not free will. A lack of free will would mean the person doesn’t control their choices. That’s a more humanistic/philosophical concept.

Free will is the ability to make choices unlike a robot. If you do not have a freedom of the will, even in moral choices (perhaps a weekened damaged one but still free) then we are not responsible for our sins and when God punishes the sinner he acts unjustly by punishing those who are not guilty. It appears that god of Calvinism is an unjust god and not the divine savior who has come to heal us of our unrighteousness, in his mercy.

 

[mikeledes]

So my friend Reformed is back! Hmmmmmm…??


By the way Reformed I am beginning to associate you with a boar - do you think you could present us with a prettier picture?

I was thinking the same thing! Reformed, I’m sure you’ve heard of Pavlovian conditioning?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

PerryJ:

If he controls all he created all.

Wouldn’t He first have to create that which He controls?

PerryJ:

So evil has a purpose; therefore, it is a good?

Evil has a purpose, and by definition, evil is not good.

Again, if evil is not within God’s control, then everyone’s in trouble, and evil is absolutely meaningless, and it’s either random, or in the control of someone greater than God or equal to God (dualism,or ditheism).

PerryJ:

How do men damn themselves if God decreed everything?

The apostle anticipated your question, and answers it:**Romans 9:19-21

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?**Well, who are you, O Perry, who answers back to God?

PerryJ:

He created universe to create a series of events that would create that person and the environment in which they would have to choose. How does a man damn themselves if everything is designed for him to be damned.

Assumes that everything is designed for man to be damned—support that.

PerryJ:

Exhaustive knowledge does not mean double predestination. The ability to control and the act of controlling are not the same. Calvinism merges the ability to control and the act of control into one event. As God’s thoughts are actions this would at first appear to be reasonable; however, it is based upon the thought that his will is to control. His thought or essence could be that he could control; yet, chose not to from the begining of time. He created man to have free will and allows man to exercise that control. With the full knowledge of what will occur; yet, not force the occurence. Again the ability to control is different than the act of control.

OK.