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There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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TriuneUnity
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Yet this is exactly what the apostle Peter says in his 2nd epistle:
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Would you argue that this was the view of Augustine, Luther, Anselm, Aquinas? To say none of them believed in the sovereign grace of God would be false, no? Yet to a one they believed the non-elect could receive saving grace and would cast it off in unrepentance and disbelief.
The Bible teaches that believers can fall from faith. As Jesus explains his parable of the sower, “Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away” (Luke 8:13). Paul writes, “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith” (1 Timothy 1:19). Other Bible statements worth pondering in this connection include 1 Corinthians 10:11-13 (where law and gospel, assurance and warning statements are set side by side), and 2 Peter 3:17-18. In these sections, the child of God is warned against abusing divine mercy and the gift of faith while being pointed back to the unconditional gospel of divine love in Christ. Law and gospel are to be preached in tandem for our benefit.
St. Paul writes to the Galatians, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace” (Galatians 5:4)
Is it possible to fall from saving grace and from Christ if the person never possessed saving grace or was never in union with Christ?
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zerinus
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Cinette
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Now TruineUnity - put it in your pipe and smoke it!!
Just joking - but seriously, read this post, digest it, reflect and pray and maybe, just maybe…you will see the light!
:newidea:C’mon - you’re a smart fella…J.
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sandusky
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They’re described as and compared to:**2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.**A false teacher is by definition false.
Do you believe that God gives false teachers to Christ to be raised up on the last day?
Am I to base my belief upon the views of Augustine, who knew little, if any Hebrew or Greek, and upon Alselm and Aquinas and Luther completely and to the complete neglect of scripture, and to the complete neglect of the teaching of others who came after them?
What does that mean—a full and final fall? What about the office of Christ, my High Priest, who is able to save me forever, and who always lives to make intercession for me (Heb 7:25 cf Rom 8:34; Lk 22:31-32)?
TriuniUnity:
They may have received the word with joy, but they did not receive the word in an honest and good heart, and persevere (v15).
TriuniUnity:
What does a shipwreck faith mean—full and final falling away?**1 Timothy 1:19-29
19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.**There’s a lesson in that for Hymenaeus and Alexander which Paul seems certain they’ll learn.
Don’t neglect the context.
Indeed, and the assurance in that passage is that along with the temptation, God provides the believer the means of escape—all of God?
My post from another thread: Your contention that a believer can “fall from grace,” is found in only one verse: Gal 5:4. That is with respect to “circumcision.” Paul’s point in the passage is that the one who puts faith in circumcision to save him instead of faith in Christ to save him will perish. If we assume that some among the Galatians had recieved circumcision that is not enough to condemn them. What condemns them, says Paul, is to continue in the belief that either circumcision alone can save them, or, the belief that circumcision and Christ is what truly saves them, for as Paul says in v6, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love; therefore, Paul is not precluding repentance from having been circumcised in either of those two beliefs, and returning to faith alone in Christ alone.
As Paul says in v10, “I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view…”
His confidence toward them is “in the Lord."
**Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.** ”Will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”
It is the Lord who saves.
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TriuneUnity
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They will not be raised up on the last day because they have received the gift of grace and rejected it.
No; but you should also base your belief on those passages in Scripture that warn against falling away from the faith. If it was not possible, they wouldn’t be there. You must also base your beliefs on the warnings of law in Scripture…as Augustine, Luther, and Aquinas did
And if you reject and disbelieve in your High Priest, will He still make intercession for you?
By the way, how do you know He is interceding for you, if you don’t know objectively whether He atoned for you?
It says they believed…he who believes in Jesus is justified…yet we know they did not persevere in their faith and fell away. This means that those who believe can become unbelivers, hence losing their standing before God.
Don’t use the context to explain the passage away, either.
All of God. And rejection and unbelief is all of man.
And the point Paul is making is that they once believed in Christ alone for salvation and were united to Christ, by faith. They then turned to circumcision and works to save them…and lost their union with Christ, hence, their salvation. Of course it is always possible to return to true faith and repentance by turning back to Christ alone.
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East_and_West
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Sounds like you are well on your way to becoming a Catholic then.
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Cinette
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:extrahappy: Are you “closing the sale”??Sounds like you are well on your way to becoming a Catholic then.
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mikeledes
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:byzsoc:Sounds like you are well on your way to becoming a Catholic then.
God Bless,
Michael
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TriuneUnity
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haha…if only a majority of Christian churches didn’t believe you can lose your justification, like Lutherans for exampleSounds like you are well on your way to becoming a Catholic then.
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TriuneUnity
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Don’t encourage him!:byzsoc:
God Bless,
Michael
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sandusky
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Proof?
I’ve considered the warnings.
TriuniUnity:
Wouldn’t His intercession with the Father on my behalf include keeping me from rejecting Him and disbelieving in Him?
TriuniUnity:
Assumes that I don’t know objectively that He atoned for me.
The Lord never accused His disciples of having no faith (Mt 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8), except on one occasion when He was speaking about their practical faith (Mk 4:40).
That truth distinguishes between those who profess to be saved and those who are really saved. The professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith (Lk 8:11-14); the professing person will persevere until the final aspect of his salvation rests upon Jesus’ return for him (8:14 cf Jn 14:2-3).
This principle is confirmed by several passages, which at first glance seem to teach the possibility of losing salvation. Let me begin with one:**Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.**The inference may be drawn, “If we do not continue in the faith, we shall be lost.” Actually, we have not been saved if we do not continue in the faith. The past fact of our being reconciled to God (v21 aorist tense) will be manifest by our continuing in the faith. (v 23).
I’m not. The evidence of a justified faith is its perseverance; the evidence of a professed faith is its lack of perseverance.
TriuniUnity:
The will of God to save those He’s chosen to save will be accomplished—He foreknew them, predestined them, called them, justified them and glorified them. Those links cannot be broken.
If they’ve been reconciled to God, as the Colossians above, and repent and persevere, they’ve not lost their union with Christ.
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East_and_West
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Well I’m really pleased to hear that the Lutherans are orthodox on this point. Is the official Lutheran view that one can lose his or her salvation?haha…if only a majority of Christian churches didn’t believe you can lose your justification, like Lutherans for example
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TriuneUnity
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Yes…it is an article of faith.
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East_and_West
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AWESOME!!!
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TriuneUnity
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By the simple fact that Jesus says that there are those who believe, yet do not persevere, and fall away.
Christ intercedes for those who have the gift of faith. We’re both in agreement on this point, yes?
What happens when the person rejects the intercession?
How do you know He did?
So the person who does not persevere never had faith to begin with? How would it be possible to fall away from that which one never had? Yet the warnings in Scripture clearly indicate that those who have fallen away have fallen away from something otherwise it would be impossible for them to fall away from it!
I don’t find “if you fall away, you never had faith” very assuring. How do I know I have faith now if I don’t know whether ten years from now I’ll be a Buddhist?
The elect will always persevere; but not everyone who has been given the gift of faith is elect. The assumption here by the Reformed tradition is that the non-elect never receive the gift of the Holy Spirit; which is never born out by Scripture.
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mikeledes
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TriuneUnity, I would like to reaffrim your argument with the following verses:
Ezekiel 3:20-21
**20"Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **
Ezekiel 33:13
13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
If a person is righteous he or she has obvioulsy received the gifts of faith and justification. Who is describing this person as righteous in these passages? GOD! Therefore, this person is righteous in His sight. This is reaffirmed by the phrase “he will surely live.” That phrase means Divine approval and is only used when God is referring to someone truly righteous (Ezekiel 3:21, 18:17, etc.) or to a wicked person who has truly repented and has been forgiven (Ezekiel 18:21). God will never approve someone who is a false professor. In the above case, the person has become presumptous and turned away from his righteosness after receiving approval from God ("when I say to the righteous he shall surely live…). The truth expressed by Ezekiel is reaffirmed by Jesus in:
Luke 12:40-46
40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Note that the servant begins faithful and wise - that’s why he’s given a position of authority over the other servants - but then abuses his authority and turns to a licentious life. What is his end? Eternal damnation. Now combine this with passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.
God Bless,
Michael
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sandusky
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That kind of faith hasn’t been reconciled to God because the heart upon which it fell was not a good and honest heart (Lk 8:15; Col 1:22-23).
No. I believe that Christ intercedes for the elect only. How does Christ intercede for those who will not be saved? Does the Father refuse the Son’s intercession?
Intercession is not made to the person, but to the Father who never rejects the Son’s requests—He and the Son are one in purpose with respect to the elect. (Jn 10:30).
Because that which was once the most stupid thing I’d ever heard is now the power of God to salvation to me and for me.
TriuniUnity:
The evidence of true faith is that it perseveres (Lk 8:15).
One can only fall away from what He has—the elect one can never fall away fully and finally; that’s not God’s will for him.
Such as?
Not everyone who has a faith that has been reconciled is assured of assurance at once, or all of the time, or at all—some have great assurance, however, assurance is not the measure of salvation, but perseverance.
You don’t.
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TriuneUnity
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So belief is not good enough?
You’re correct that Christ does not intercede for those who do not have faith in Christ. This, however, says nothing about those who believe for a time and then fall away.
I never said it was to the person. Not sure what you meant there. Again, the elect will always persevere.
So your assurance that Christ atoned for your sins is based on what you think or feel about it rather than what God has said about it?
That has got to be a precarious place to be in.
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ralphinal
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I love it when Protestants argue. It shows how right we are about sola scriptura not answering everyone’s questions the same way.
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