There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[ralphinal]

I was just responding to our LDS Christian friend.

Oh, trust me, I understand that. I do that to. I was talking about your “apparent free-will” statement.

 

[zerinus]

Are you saying that Mormons and Catholic have much in common, like rejecting the sovereignty of God in salvation? I noticed that both Mormons and Catholics like to teach about the apparent free will of man.

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

zerinus

 

[cazayoux]

Are you saying that Mormons and Catholic have much in common, like rejecting the sovereignty of God in salvation? I noticed that both Mormons and Catholics like to teach about the apparent free will of man.

You continue to associate Catholics and Mormons even though I’ve addresses a list that you gave.
As an example, you drew an equality between apostolic succession and prophetic succession, even giving a link to a mormon website for me to ‘read for myself’.

I showed you in scripture how there is in NO way any correlation.
Even the Mormons on that board spoke up about even having the term prophet succession.

Please quit associating the two.

We do not, in any way, reject the sovereignty of God in salvation.
This is an outrageous claim.

Are you ready to tackle the questions I’ve given you several times that you have yet to answer?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

FOR REFORMED

CAZAYOUX posed a question to you more than once and I have been looking out for your response. You are either avoiding the question or you are unable to do so. Which is it?

1. Can God give power to others?
2. What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

:bowdown: Please answer :bowdown2:

 

[zerinus]

You continue to associate Catholics and Mormons even though I’ve addresses a list that you gave.
As an example, you drew an equality between apostolic succession and prophetic succession, even giving a link to a mormon website for me to ‘read for myself’.

I showed you in scripture how there is in NO way any correlation.
Even the Mormons on that board spoke up about even having the term prophet succession.

But I agreed witht he general idea that he was trying to express; even thought the terminology he used was not acurate.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

FOR REFORMED

CAZAYOUX posed a question to you more than once and I have been looking out for your response. You are either avoiding the question or you are unable to do so. Which is it?

I don’t know about him; but here is a Mormon answer to those questions:

1. Can God give power to others?

I don’t know what you mean by that specifically; but the general answer to that question is yes.

1. What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Agreed. Jesus did give that power to His Apostles at that time; but it was lost following the Apostasy. That power now resides in the LDS Church, and nowhere else.

zerinus

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hi wild boar brother,

How do you reconcile to verses below with your posting above?

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8

Not all who believe are predestined to eternal life; only those who endure to the end. This passage is about the elect. The non-elect may believe for a time. Calvinism states they never believed.

 

[TriuneUnity]

LOL!!! … I knew TriuneUnity was on the Roman road. I thought you were my wild boar brother?

http://www.dennisholmesdesigns.com/siteimages/boar.png

Hey TriuneUnity, are you a wild boar or have you been domesticated?

http://barraca.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/funny_pig.gif

I believe in biblical and Lutheran theology. I’m not going to worry whether that lines up with Roman Catholicism or not. My viewpoints do not revolve around being as non-Roman Catholic as possible. If they’re right about falling away from the faith, then kudos to them. You believing in the Trinity must mean you’re on the Roman road

 

[cazayoux]

Jesus did give that power to His Apostles at that time; but it was lost following the Apostasy. That power now resides in the LDS Church, and nowhere else.

zerinus

Apostasy? What apostasy?
When did that happen?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

But I agreed witht he general idea that he was trying to express; even thought the terminology he used was not acurate.

zerinus

He was basing his similarities on that very terminology of ‘succession’.
I believe his list of similarities between your church and mine to be a stretch.

michel

 

[sandusky]

TriuneUnity:

Severed from Christ; cut off from the vine; this indicates connection with that which is being severed from. We cannot be ingrafted into Christ without being justified.

That’s how you arrive at your understanding that the justified lose their salvation, and that’s a valid way of doing so.

TriuneUnity:

And that goes back to the previous question; how do you know you’re elect?

I’ve answered you several times. ISTM that you’re a technical guy, and you expect that I follow a party line, and answer accordingly; I’ll answer you this time with a purely subjective answer: the greatest evidence is the change in my life from reprobation to regeneration, and, my dues are current.

TriuneUnity:

I don’t doubt that your faith is in God. It is not my position to question your faith. It is, however, my position to insure you remain consistent with your theological presuppositions.

You’re a theology sheriff? Will you be placing me under arrest?

TriuneUnity:

For a Calvinist to speak about assurance they have to sound like a non-Calvinist. If you are consistent with your viewpoints, you cannot point to the promises of God in Scripture; because you do not know if they apply to you unless you believe they apply to you.

And I do believe they apply to me, as Paul believed they applied to him, and as he encourages those who believe that they apply to them: “I have been crucified with Christ…who loved me, and gave himself up for me."

TriuneUnity:

There is nothing that separates it from the reprobate down the street who is deluding himself into believing he is saved.

There’s plenty that separates it from the reprobate down the street, you see, I used to be worse than the worst reprobate down the street, or on skid row, or in prison.

TriuneUnity:

The perseverence of those who have no way to tell they’re saints.

Think about what you’re saying.

TriuneUnity:

No; in the atonement.

That’s what saves you…faith in the atonement? Or is it your hope that your faith in the atonement saves you?

TriuneUnity:

Verse reference?

1 Sam 28:19.

TriuneUnity:

Yes, some were and not the whole church; yet Paul makes no distinction between “believers” and “professed believers.”

Nobody does, TU, the assumption from the pulpit is that all are saved; however, scripturally, the truth is known that all are not.

TriuneUnity:

Clearly, the wording of Paul’s warning indicates that he assumes that the ones relying on the law for salvation were justified, otherwise he wouldnt tell them that they were severing themselves from something they were never connected to.

Paul doesn’t know who’s saved or not, but again, assumes that all are; he never assumes otherwise in any epistle. His language is harsh, and meant to be; nevertheless, if those who were “severed” were justified, they’re now glorified, unless you can show me where un-justification is presented other than by warnings and admonitions.

 

[Cinette]

I think Jesus clearly taught that all who professed Christ (visible church) are not in the invisble church. The opposite of “I never knew you” is “I foreknew” (predestination).

I Never Knew You - Mat 7

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

**PINK!

:bigyikes: **

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’ve answered you several times. ISTM that you’re a technical guy, and you expect that I follow a party line, and answer accordingly; I’ll answer you this time with a purely subjective answer: the greatest evidence is the change in my life from reprobation to regeneration, and, my dues are current.

And this is no different than anyone else who looks to themselves as evidence of salvation. For Protestants who view salvation in terms of their changed life, they should immediately cease from criticizing Catholics who look to their good works for salvation.

You’re a theology sheriff? Will you be placing me under arrest?

Anyone who holds to sola and tota scriptura should be a theology sheriff.

And I do believe they apply to me, as Paul believed they applied to him, and as he encourages those who believe that they apply to them: “I have been crucified with Christ…who loved me, and gave himself up for me."

Paul could say this because he knew that Christ gave himself up for Paul, as well as to everyone else he was speaking to.

There’s plenty that separates it from the reprobate down the street, you see, I used to be worse than the worst reprobate down the street, or on skid row, or in prison.

And there are plenty of atheists who have done the same.

That’s what saves you…faith in the atonement? Or is it your hope that your faith in the atonement saves you?

No, my faith in the atonement doesn’t save me. The atonement saves me. You asked what I looked to as evidence of my salvation.

1 Sam 28:19.

He says they will be with me, i.e. Samuel. It could be taken as a reference to Sheol. If indeed, it was even the spirit of Samuel.

 

[sandusky]

TriuneUnity:

And this is no different than anyone else who looks to themselves as evidence of salvation. For Protestants who view salvation in terms of their changed life, they should immediately cease from criticizing Catholics who look to their good works for salvation.

I don’t criticize Catholics for their good works; however, I don’t believe that it’s good works that save—that’s all.

TriuneUnity:

Paul could say this because he knew that Christ gave himself up for Paul, as well as to everyone else he was speaking to.

I understand your position.

TriuneUnity:

And there are plenty of atheists who have done the same.

Plenty of atheists who follow Christ? Explain.

TriuneUnity:

No, my faith in the atonement doesn’t save me. The atonement saves me. You asked what I looked to as evidence of my salvation.

Does the atonement save without faith? (Just curious, not looking for another discussion).

TriuneUnity:

He says they will be with me, i.e. Samuel. It could be taken as a reference to Sheol. If indeed, it was even the spirit of Samuel.

That’s why asked, “what do you think?”

Why wouldn’t it have been the spirit of Samuel?

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky:

You’re a theology sheriff? Will you be placing me under arrest?

TriuneUnity:

Anyone who holds to sola and tota scriptura should be a theology sheriff.

This brings to mind an anecdote I heard years ago. I don’t remember where I heard it, and so, can’t reference it, but I’ll never forget it.

It seems that Karl Barth and Hans Kung were having much the same discussion concerning “faith in faith.” The discussion got very heated, and as the two wrapped things up and were saying their goodbyes, Kung quipped to Barth, “may God grant you GREAT FAITH.”

Barth replied to Kung, "in that day in which I stand before my Judge, all of the things I’ve written concerning theology in the attempt to understand what I believe, and why I believe it, they will go away and will not be in my mind because I will beating on my breast with my head bowed begging, ‘Lord have mercy on me the sinner.’ "

Kung nodded.

 

[Cinette]

LOL!!! … I knew TriuneUnity was on the Roman road. I thought you were my wild boar brother?

http://www.dennisholmesdesigns.com/siteimages/boar.png

Hey TriuneUnity, are you a wild boar or have you been domesticated?

http://barraca.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/funny_pig.gif

**Thank you for posting your portrait Reformed. I must say you have good teeth, very good. do you bite?

When are you going to answer Michel’s question? **

 

[zerinus]

Apostasy? What apostasy?

The one I told you about in the other thread!

When did that happen?

In the first century AD!

zerinus

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t criticize Catholics for their good works; however, I don’t believe that it’s good works that save—that’s all.

They will say the same, of course. But Catholics and Calvinists both look to their works as evidence they are saved. That is not looking at the atonement.

Plenty of atheists who follow Christ? Explain.

Plenty of atheists that go from being down in the dirt to cleaning up their act.

Does the atonement save without faith? (Just curious, not looking for another discussion).

Yes. Christ reconciled God with mankind. Faith in the news of reconciliation is the result of the atonement.

That’s why asked, “what do you think?”

Why wouldn’t it have been the spirit of Samuel?

I’ve read a few different commentaries on that one. Do you believe witches can summon the spirits of the dead?

 

[TriuneUnity]

This brings to mind an anecdote I heard years ago. I don’t remember where I heard it, and so, can’t reference it, but I’ll never forget it.

It seems that Karl Barth and Hans Kung were having much the same discussion concerning “faith in faith.” The discussion got very heated, and as the two wrapped things up and were saying their goodbyes, Kung quipped to Barth, “may God grant you GREAT FAITH.”

Barth replied to Kung, "in that day in which I stand before my Judge, all of the things I’ve written concerning theology in the attempt to understand what I believe, and why I believe it, they will go away and will not be in my mind because I will beating on my breast with my head bowed begging, ‘Lord have mercy on me the sinner.’ "

Kung nodded.

I agree with Kung; I won’t give God a theology lesson when I stand before His judgment seat.

I only give theology lessons to Calvinists

 

[zerinus]

He was basing his similarities on that very terminology of ‘succession’.

I said his terminology was not accurate; but the idea he had expressed had some truth in it.

I believe his list of similarities between your church and mine to be a stretch.

I was not expressing any opinions on the similarities or dissimilarities. I was merely commenting on one specific thing that he had said.

zerinus