There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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still need you to answer those questions, though…

FOR REFORMED

CAZAYOUX posed a question to you more than once and I have been looking out for your response. You are either avoiding the question or you are unable to do so. Which is it?
  1. Can God give power to others?
  2. What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?
John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel…
 
Reformed said:
Are you saying that Mormons and Catholic have much in common, like rejecting the sovereignty of God in salvation? I noticed that both Mormons and Catholics like to teach about the apparent free will of man. 🙂
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Catholics do not reject the sovereignty. Before making such claims, you should study the Catholic Church’s teachings on predestination first.

God Bless,
Michael
 
TriuneUnity said:
They will say the same, of course. But Catholics and Calvinists both look to their works as evidence they are saved. That is not looking at the atonement.
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Catholics believe that one cannot have absolute assurance that one is among those predestined to glory. However, one’s conduct is a good inidcator - though not an infallible one - that one may be numbered among the elect. 🙂

What I would like to know is whether Calvinsts know they are of the elect? Do they have absolute assurance? I get mixed messages from the Calvinist camp.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Is God so sovereign that if He so chooses to do evil it becomes good by his command?
 
mikeledes said:
TriuneUnity, I would like to reaffrim your argument with the following verses:

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20"Again, when a righteous man **turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

Ezekiel 33:13

**13"When I say to the righteous **he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

If a person is righteous he or she has obvioulsy received the gifts of faith and justification. Who is describing this person as righteous in these passages? GOD! Therefore, this person is righteous in His sight. This is reaffirmed by the phrase “he will surely live.” That phrase means Divine approval and is only used when God is referring to someone truly righteous (Ezekiel 3:21, 18:17, etc.) or to a wicked person who has truly repented and has been forgiven (Ezekiel 18:21). God will never approve someone who is a false professor. In the above case, the person has become presumptous and turned away from his righteosness after receiving approval from God ("when I say to the righteous he shall surely live…). The truth expressed by Ezekiel is reaffirmed by Jesus in:

Luke 12:40-46

40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Note that the servant begins faithful and wise - that’s why he’s given a position of authority over the other servants - but then abuses his authority and turns to a licentious life. What is his end? Eternal damnation. Now combine this with passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.

God Bless,
Michael
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I reaffirm what I stated above. Only those elect for glory will persevere. If a righteous person fails to persevere - as in the above passages - they were not elect for glory. However, the fact that such a person is described as righteous by God - and I’m pretty sure He knows who’s righteous and who’s not and this is reaffirmed by reception of divine approval ("he shall surely live) - means that person has been justified. Passages like Hebrews 6 confirm that a truly righteous person can fall away:

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

How can you be renewed again to something that never really happened? Both the words “renewed” and “again” mean that there is a repetition and renovation of an act that has taken place in the past. If “repentance” refers to “false profession”, then why on earth would anyone want a renewal to a “false profession” again? It is obvious that the repentance being referred to here is a genuine one that has resulted in being made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Since Saul has surfaced in this discussion, I wonder if he fulfills one of the signs of being one of the elect, namely, perseverance. If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Saul commit suicide?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Catholics do not reject the sovereignty. Before making such claims, you should study the Catholic Church’s teachings on predestination first.

God Bless,
Michael
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Please explain how the Catholic Church can teach free will (sovereignty of man) and the sovereignity of God in salvation at the same time.
 
sandusky said:
The mirror?
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A reflection of our own election.
But it’s only valid in those who have faith in the atonement, and not for those who must “look inward” or to their works for assurance of their standing with God?
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Yes.
Of course they’re not, but they are a valid means of assurance; Christ and the apostles cited objective and experiential (subjective) guidelines for assurance.
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But when you have no objective assurance that Christ died for you, works and faith are the only thing you can look at.
 
mikeledes said:
Catholics believe that one cannot have absolute assurance that one is among those predestined to glory. However, one’s conduct is a good inidcator - though not an infallible one - that one may be numbered among the elect. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
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As long as we trust in the sacrifice of Christ for sinners, we can have assurance. If we look anywhere else, it will falter. If we stop looking to the person and work of Christ, we have 0 assurance.

Everything else is sinful.
 
cazayoux said:
AT LAST … we completely agree!!

michel
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Reformed said:
Can I call you one of my wild boar brothers too! 🙂
Unity in the Truth of the Gospel of God’s grace!
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cazayoux said:
Didn’t you know? … we’ve been brothers quite a while now.
Cheers!
michel
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Reformed said:
Are you catholic or Roman Catholic? 🙂
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cazayoux said:
Yes! :yup:
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Can I reject the claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church and still be part of the catholic church of God?

http://home.kc.rr.com/warfsplace/graphics/martin_luther-1529.jpg http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/images/wild_boar2.gif

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. - Apostle James the Calvninist. 🙂
 
Reformed said:
Can I reject the claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church and still be part of the catholic church of God?
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As a brother who loves you, I would not want you to reject Christ.
Christ founded a church that is one, visible, authoritative, and apostolic, which is His body.

The catholic church of God is the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church.

I only pray that you give more credence to Jesus than to Calvin.

michel
 
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TriuneUnity:
A reflection of our own election.
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His election as savior?
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TriuneUnity:
Yes.
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There is nothing that separates it from the reprobate down the street who is deluding himself into believing he is saved.
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The statement in blue is yours; what’s to keep the reprobate down the street from deluding himself into believing that he’s saved because he believes in the atonement, and what would distinguish his belief in the atonement from your belief in the atonement?
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TriuneUnity:
But when you have no objective assurance that Christ died for you, works and faith are the only thing you can look at.
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But I do have objective assurance that Christ died for me—the atonement—and I have experiential assurance as well. You desire to exclude me from faith in the atonement as a reason for assurance on the basis that I don’t believe that Christ atoned for all; correct?
 
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