There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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God is unable to do everything. God cannot lie. God cannot do evil since there is no darkness in Him at all.
Ok. That is the Traditional thought. Some hold that if GOd does something evil, then since God did it, it is no longer evil but is good. IN other words, his soverinty commmands evil to be good. This is not acceptable to you?
 
His election as savior?
We are chosen in the Beloved, yes. In view of Christ’s atoning work.
The statement in blue is yours; what’s to keep the reprobate down the street from deluding himself into believing that he’s saved because he believes in the atonement, and what would distinguish his belief in the atonement from your belief in the atonement?
Nothing; except that Christ still died for the both of us.
But I do have objective assurance that Christ died for me—the atonement—and I have experiential assurance as well. You desire to exclude me from faith in the atonement as a reason for assurance on the basis that I don’t believe that Christ atoned for all; correct?
Correct.
 
Please explain how the Catholic Church can teach free will (sovereignty of man) and the sovereignity of God in salvation at the same time.
Interesting question - I look forward to the answer as well.

By the way Reformed - what exactly is a Reformed Protestant? Does it mean that one has been reformed from Protestantism?:😉
 
As a brother who loves you, I would not want you to reject Christ.
Christ founded a church that is one, visible, authoritative, and apostolic, which is His body.

The catholic church of God is the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church.

I only pray that you give more credence to Jesus than to Calvin.

michel
Good Post Cazayoux.

You know, I sometimes wonder how Protestants view Catholics. We look at them as our separated Brothers and Sisters who have part of the truth and we would love to welcome home. We view them also as potential treasures because many have so much to share and to offer.

Reformed is very photogenic don’t you think?

😃 😛
 
Ok. That is the Traditional thought. Some hold that if GOd does something evil, then since God did it, it is no longer evil but is good. IN other words, his soverinty commmands evil to be good. This is not acceptable to you?
Sometimes I think that one wouldn’t be able to recognize light without darkness. Would you know that light is light if you have not seen darkness?

Good and Bad.

The same applies to hunger and …

Suffering and …

We humans tend not to give much attention to God when everything is going our way - hunky dory! - it is only when we have trials and trubulations that we remember to turn to the Lord!

So we have to always have an “itch” or a “thorn in our side” that will draw us to God. The yearning within us is never satisfied - at least not in this world. God knew what He was doing when he put this “mechanism” within all of us - a mechanism that draws us to HIM!

I do not believe that God does evil things. I believe that he may permit evil - which is often a consequence of our actions and choices. He gave us dominion of the planet and we therefore have a responsibility but unfortunately greed and sin and power and hunger and desperation and and and… has caused destruction. There is always tension between good and evil. Here is a good word, yes, tension - maybe tension is what we need to grow - the tension between opposites.

This is my :twocents: - I am a revert that is learning, learning, learning…and loving. If I say silly things please forgive me.🙂 :love: :blushing:
 
As a brother who loves you, I would not want you to reject Christ.
Christ founded a church that is one, visible, authoritative, and apostolic, which is His body.

The catholic church of God is the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church.

I only pray that you give more credence to Jesus than to Calvin.

michel
Rejecting the Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with the biblical Jesus Christ. John Calvin like the other Reformers are pointing to the biblical Jesus Christ. 🙂
 
Ok. That is the Traditional thought. Some hold that if GOd does something evil, then since God did it, it is no longer evil but is good. IN other words, his soverinty commmands evil to be good. This is not acceptable to you?
You lost me my friend.
 
Interesting question - I look forward to the answer as well.

By the way Reformed - what exactly is a Reformed Protestant? Does it mean that one has been reformed from Protestantism?:😉
What is Reformed Theology?
Reformed theology…

…presupposes God’s Word alone as our ultimate authority.

…stresses the sovereignty of God, that is, His reign over all things, meticulously determining (Eph 1:11) all that comes to pass (i.e. God is never taken by surprise).

…ephasizes a Christ-Centered proclamation of the gospel, that salvation is wholly of God, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as revealed in the Scripture alone to the Glory of God alone.

…views the Bible as a redemptive-historical organic unfolding of revelation which is structured by three covenants (redemption, works and grace).

It goes without saying that those in the Reformed Tradition hold to the doctrines of grace (the five points of Calvinism), man’s helpless condition apart from Christ, the necessity of evangelism and the work of the Holy Spirit who (monergistically) quickens the dead to life through the preaching of the word as God turning their heart of stone to flesh, and opening their eyes to the excellencies of the gospel (uniting them to Christ). In other words, RT stresses the way the objective, written Word together with the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together. For the Word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit remains a closed book. We (the church) cast forth the seed of the gospel and the Holy Spirit germinates it, so to speak, with the blood of Christ bringing forth life in people from every nation, tribe, language, and people (Rev 14:6). RT traces its historical and theological lineage back to the theology of Christ, Paul, Augustine and to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century.

Reformed Protestantism can be studied and examined on this site:

monergism.com/
 
What is Reformed Theology?
Reformed theology…

…presupposes God’s Word alone as our ultimate authority.

…stresses the sovereignty of God, that is, His reign over all ****things, meticulously determining (Eph 1:11) all that comes to pass (i.e. God is never taken by surprise).

…ephasizes a Christ-Centered proclamation of the gospel, that salvation is wholly of God, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as revealed in the Scripture alone to the Glory of God alone. Do you not believe in Christ’s delegation to Peter and the Apostles "On this rock will build my Church…I will be with you always…the HS will guide you…??? Don’t you trust in Apostolic Succession? I know that the people of God and the Church throughout the ages have wavered but thru the HS we were kept in tow. I think it is a testimony to Jesus’ promises that we have been able to survive 2000 years of Christianity with all its worts and and all…we go off track and he brings us back. Without the HS we can do nothing

…views the Bible as a redemptive-historical organic unfolding of revelation which is structured by three covenants (redemption, works and grace). that is true and wonderful

It goes without saying that those in the Reformed Tradition hold to the doctrines of grace (the five points of Calvinism),it was not necessary to follow a heretic man’s helpless condition apart from Christ, the necessity of evangelism and the work of the Holy Spirit who (monergistically) quickens the dead to life through the preaching of the word as God turning their heart of stone to flesh, and opening their eyes to the excellencies of the gospel (uniting them to Christ). In other words, RT stresses the way the objective, written Word together with the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together. For the Word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit remains a closed book. We (the church) cast forth the seed of the gospel and the Holy Spirit germinates it, so to speak, with the blood of Christ bringing forth life in people from every nation, tribe, language, and people (Rev 14:6). RT traces its historical and theological lineage back to the theology of Christ, Paul, Augustine and to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century. Reformed I think I said it before but I will say it again - what a treasure you are and you should embrace of “fullness of truth” COME HOME!!

Reformed Protestantism can be studied and examined on this site:

monergism.com/
I am a revert and am having so much fun in the Catholic Church. You know, when you have something so good you want everyone to share in it. :yup: :extrahappy: :bounce: :love:
 
Please explain how the Catholic Church can teach free will (sovereignty of man) and the sovereignity of God in salvation at the same time.
They can’t. God the Father seeks out to find an intimate relationship with humankind. Not the other way around. Our “freewill” in Catholic teaching is never applied to salvation history. In fact, our free will is truly found when we surrender to God, and empty ourselves to God. All this to say, our intrinsic design, our purpose is for an intimate relationship with Him.

The best way to explain that would be to image a huge infinite chasm between us and God. Not one person, no matter how strong can cross this infinite chasm, but God can. And this He did for us in the Incarnation.

This simple basic Truth starts with the first question asked in Genesis: “where are you?” While mankind replies back by running away from Him.

On one final note, in my mind, and in Apostolic Truth (the way I understand it). This has nothing to do with predestination.
 
They can’t. God the Father seeks out to find an intimate relationship with humankind. Not the other way around. Our “freewill” in Catholic teaching is never applied to salvation history. In fact, our free will is truly found when we surrender to God, and empty ourselves to God. All this to say, our intrinsic design, our purpose is for an intimate relationship with Him.This is so true

The best way to explain that would be to image a huge infinite chasm between us and God. Not one person, no matter how strong can cross this infinite chasm, but God can. And this He did for us in the Incarnation.

This simple basic Truth starts with the first question asked in Genesis: “where are you?” While mankind replies back by running away from Him.

On one final note, in my mind, and in Apostolic Truth (the way I understand it). This has nothing to do with predestination.
**Thank you:) **

***Oh Monkey you are so right!

I tried so hard to surrender and found it difficult but when I did what a relief it was! Now, when I pray I never ask for anything except that “Your will be done”. He always gets his way in any case - he answers our prayers in the most remarkable way - always giving us what is best for us. So now I have learned to have a grateful heart and I promised myself that this week I would thank God all the time for everything.

This morning at Mass my heart swelled as the Priest read the Gospel - when Jesus gave us his Holy Mother at the foot of the cross. My husband converted from athiesm 3 years ago - it took a long time - but he never had a problem with any of the issues raised by Protestants. He was fortunate in that respect.

🙂
 
Rejecting the Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with the biblical Jesus Christ. John Calvin like the other Reformers are pointing to the biblical Jesus Christ. 🙂
John Calvin, like the other reformers then and today, actually ignore history and ‘shape’ scripture to fit their man-made theology, that frankly, are actually new ideas.

It seems to me that those that leave Catholicism do so because of feelings and without understanding what the church teaches and why, an unstudied move based on emotion only.

Those that convert to Catholicism do so through study of scripture and history, and with that background, their feelings of connection with Christ through the Eucharist are immense.

Not that I’ll badmouth those that, through emotion, leave the church to go to a place that gets them more interested and focused on God. That is extremely important.
These same people though, I’ve seen come back to the Catholic Church once they get serious about reading scripture and history.

Christ founded a visible church.
It is still here, because Jesus said it would be.

By your unwillingness to answer the questions regarding the men forgiving sins through the power of Jesus tells me that this very basic, scriptural command of Jesus’ is not practiced in your church.

I would say that your church has not yet ‘discovered’ the church Jesus Christ founded.

You would have us believe that the Holy Spirit messed up real bad until the 1500’s, THEN got it right. The Holy Spirit couldn’t get it right, so good thing Calvin came along. I think better of the Holy Spirit.

Scriptural arm-wrestling will be your tactic, but the bottom line is that the visible church Jesus founded was there in the first century … and in the second century, the 3rd century, the 4th century, the 5th century, the 6th century, the 7th century, the 8th century, the 9th century, the 10th century, the 11th century, the 12th century, the 13th century, the 14th century, the 15th century, the 16th century, the 17th century, the 18th century, the 19th century, the 20th century, the 21st century, … is still here today, and it is the Catholic Church.

You typically provide a position then quote sections of scripture seemingly from a tract with a title. Scripture that actually does not show what you think it means, as I point out over and over again.

To find the church that Jesus founded is to find the visible church that has the authority of the apostles and is one with each other in doctrine.
Protestantism that I see today is so contrary to these basic attributes of His church: one, apostolic, and authoritative.

Don’t get me wrong. In my faith journey, I’ve had my questions regarding the Catholic faith, and my studies of scripture and history over a ten year period present overwhelming evidence that the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus founded. Not one protestant religion bourne of 1500s and later holds any water.

‘Reformer’ is not even a correct title for these men such as Calvin and Luther. They didn’t reform a church, but left it. This is the lesson they’ve taught. If you don’t like it, or agree with it, leave and start your own. This is not a tenant of Jesus’.

I think it is great to question. Even necessary. This is what I did. I pray that you do as I did, and read the bible … without the footnotes of a Catholic or non-Catholic … and devour it. Pray to the Holy Spirit to open your heart. Read the early Christian writings. This is a point I got to in my journey that has led me to where I am today.

If you truly want to follow Christ, pray, pray, pray, listen to what He says, and please honestly seek the church that he founded.

Cheers, brother.

michel
 
They can’t. God the Father seeks out to find an intimate relationship with humankind. Not the other way around. Our “freewill” in Catholic teaching is never applied to salvation history. In fact, our free will is truly found when we surrender to God, and empty ourselves to God. All this to say, our intrinsic design, our purpose is for an intimate relationship with Him.

The best way to explain that would be to image a huge infinite chasm between us and God. Not one person, no matter how strong can cross this infinite chasm, but God can. And this He did for us in the Incarnation.

This simple basic Truth starts with the first question asked in Genesis: “where are you?” While mankind replies back by running away from Him.

On one final note, in my mind, and in Apostolic Truth (the way I understand it). This has nothing to do with predestination.
Thanks for sharing! Do you think your ideas can be supported in the Scriptures? When Adam and Eve ran from God, they already sinned against God. Do you think they still had free will at that point? Or, was their will bent toward sin…therefore in their fallen nature they ran from God. How can unredeemed sinners choose God in Christ when their nature inclines them to run from the light? I believe Adam and Eve had free will before the fall. However, after the fall they lost their free will and were bondage to their fallen nature.

For God So Loved the World

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - Joohn 3

We all once hated the light because we all did wicked things. Whoever comes to the light were enabled to God to come to the light by His influence. You see, our wills were not free to choose Christ without the influence of God. God remains sovereign in all things, including the salvation of sinners. Mankind is never sovereign over God. Do you think God is even sovereign over the weather? Do these natural disasters happen outside the will of God?
 
You lost me my friend.
There was a school of thought formed out of nominalism in the middle ages that said that God’s soveringty was such that if he chose to do evil, it would cease to be evil and become good. When you look at the early Reformers, there is some proof that they adopted this concept, or some form of it. Since then, the actual Protestant Churches have by and large left it, but it does show a mindset that is prevelant in the theology. Double predestination is easily reconcilled with this idea. For God to allow someone to be born knowing full well that he would have absolutely no chance to beleive and thus enter heaven is not the act of a kind and merciful God. Even Allah would not do that.
 
Please explain how the Catholic Church can teach free will (sovereignty of man) and the sovereignity of God in salvation at the same time.
I think the mistake you’re making is assuming that believing in free will automatically makes man sovereign. Calvinists believe that Adam - who did not posses a sinful nature - freely chose to sin and yet what he did was the fulfillment of a Divine decree. In this case, Calvinists are somehow able to reconcile free will with Divine Sovereignty and simply say it’s a mystery. The argument that believing in free will makes man sovereign may be the case in Arminianism, but that is not the case in Catholic theology. In Arminianism - whether it’s the Classic/Wesleyan verison or the OSAS variety - predestination is purely God’s foreknowledge of man’s free choices. God forsees how man responds to His grace and elects those who believe. In other words, election is merely divine rubber stamping of man’s choices. Consequently, Arminians have difficulty explaining why prevenient grace is efficacious in one person and not in the other or why one person perseveres and the other does not. In fact, the efficaciousness of grace really depends on something inherent in man. Unlike Arminians, we believe that the infallible efficaciousness of grace in the elect ultimately depends on God, not on man. There are two basic explanations of the relationship between grace and free will in Catholic theology (Thomism and Molinism), but both maintain that the infallible efficacy of grace ultimately depends on God. We believe that man freely choses God under the influence of His grace. The precise relationship between grace and free will, however, remains a mystery.

God Bless,
Michael
 
There was a school of thought formed out of nominalism in the middle ages that said that God’s soveringty was such that if he chose to do evil, it would cease to be evil and become good. When you look at the early Reformers, there is some proof that they adopted this concept, or some form of it. Since then, the actual Protestant Churches have by and large left it, but it does show a mindset that is prevelant in the theology. Double predestination is easily reconcilled with this idea. For God to allow someone to be born knowing full well that he would have absolutely no chance to beleive and thus enter heaven is not the act of a kind and merciful God. Even Allah would not do that.
Thank you for sharing that information. I would like to add that sometimes we think things are evil, but are not. For example, when God flooded the entire world, we might consider that the worldwide flood was an evil act which almost all perished. However, we know that God cannot do evil, and it was an act of divine holy judgement against sinful mankind. Here are Scriptures that helps me understand divine providence. What do you think about natural disasters that occur today which many perish? I think we are born into this world in enmity with God and are all on the road to Hell. God in Christ came to rescue sinners. Does God have the power and ability to rescue all sinners from Hell? If you say yes, why doesn’t He rescue all mankind from what they deserve? How does your answer line-up with the truth of mercy and grace?

Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!

1 John 1:5

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
 
There was a school of thought formed out of nominalism in the middle ages that said that God’s soveringty was such that if he chose to do evil, it would cease to be evil and become good. When you look at the early Reformers, there is some proof that they adopted this concept, or some form of it. Since then, the actual Protestant Churches have by and large left it, but it does show a mindset that is prevelant in the theology. Double predestination is easily reconcilled with this idea. For God to allow someone to be born knowing full well that he would have absolutely no chance to beleive and thus enter heaven is not the act of a kind and merciful God. Even Allah would not do that.
That may have been the case for some of the reformers, though I am not sure. The nominalism charge is laid at them often, however, many of them, such as Calvin and Luther, rejected nominalism (especially Luther).

Though I’m not a Calvinist and double predestination is something I could never accept, to play devil’s advocate for a moment, the person who is created and never chooses to believe in God is no reflection on God’s creative act. I think the problem when discussing Calvinism is that a lack of free will simply means a lack of moral will. The will is in bondage to sin and the person freely rebels against God.

At any rate, taking the road of theodicy is never a good idea.
 
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