There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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Have a great day!
I understand your reluctance to answer.
This is more than just a chink in the armor.
Realize that your theology ignores this scripture.

This is a huge statement that you need to take to heart.
Pray!!!

To seek truth is to seek Jesus is to seek the Word of God is to seek scripture.

michel
 
You really have not answered cazayoux’s question. You explain the passage by saying that it means that the apostles are merely proclaiming the forgiveness of sins. That is not what the verse says. It says:

John 20:23

23"If YOU forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if YOU retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Please explain to us how the apostles retain sin?

God Bless,
Michael
 
You really have not answered cazayoux’s question. You explain the passage by saying that it means that the apostles are merely proclaiming the forgiveness of sins. That is not what the verse says. It says:

John 20:23

23"If YOU forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if YOU retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Please explain to us how the apostles retain sin?

God Bless,
Michael
Simple. By not absolving them. If a person goes to confession and there is good reason to believe that the confessor is not really repentant, the priests retains the sins by not providing sacramental absolution.
 
Simple. By not absolving them. If a person goes to confession and there is good reason to believe that the confessor is not really repentant, the priests retains the sins by not providing sacramental absolution.
That’s how a Catholic would explain it. But I’m certain that is not how Reformed would explain it. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
Hang on; let’s go back to your original question:How is the hearing of, and subsequent rejection after hearing the Gospel ”absolutely no chance to believe” the Gospel?
I will skip the “those born in a time or place where the Gospel was not able to be taught” as that is not the relevent question.

If someone hears the Gospel and chooses not to beleive, that is not the same. Do you beleive that faith is a free gift from God that we cannot merit and do not choose? If so, then God did not allow them to have the ability to beleive. If not, then they had the opportunity and rejected it. If I choose to beleive, is that not a work? I thought you rejected works in salvation

I hold that there are two kinds of faith, that which is a gift from God and that which is an ascent of will to accept things. One requires our participation. We may have the gift of faith, then choose not to force our will to comply, at which time we are damned. We may have the gift of faith, and force our will to comply, in which case we shall be saved. We may not be given the gift of faith, which Catholics hold comes through Baptism for most.
 
But how does one know if one has been restored to that baptism?

God less,
Michael
Through the means of grace; the preached word, the Lord’s Supper, Absolution, and by knowing that you are baptized.

One doesn’t have to think we’re restored; the means of grace tell us we’re restored. They create the faith that trusts that we are restored.
 
Interesting and insigtful post. So…how long do you go without sinning against God?
**About the same as you. Anyone that claims they don’t sin at all after becoming a christian are delusional. **

 
NOT the question at hand.
You are sidestepping again.

You said:
The church that Jesus founded goes way before His incarnation and includes the remnant in the Old Testament. Consider Abraham.

I showed Matt 16:18 to highlight that which is bold, underlined.

Matt 16:18
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

We can discuss who or what the rock is in another thread.
Addess the underlinced text in light of your previous statement.

michel
1 Corinthians 10

For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Gal 2

The Law and the Promise

15 To give a human example, brothers: [6] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [7] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

The church is all that God predestined to be adopted into the family of God through faith. This includes both the New and Old Testament saints.

Galatians 3:8

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify [1] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
 
Through the means of grace; the preached word, the Lord’s Supper, Absolution, and by knowing that you are baptized.

One doesn’t have to think we’re restored; the means of grace tell us we’re restored. They create the faith that trusts that we are restored.
So in the case of adults, does faith precede baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and absolution?

God Bless,
Michael
 
The church is all that God predestined to be adopted into the family of God through faith. This includes both the New and Old Testament saints.
Are you equating the law with church?
Amen to the scripture you provided, but ‘church’ is not mentioned at all in those verses.

Matt 16:18
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Jesus’ words speak differently and specifically of a church that does not exist yet.

This is another point from scripture that cannot be ignored.

michel
 
What do you think?
Those whom God moved from Adam to Christ are in Christ forever… to the praise of His glorious grace. 🙂

Romans 5

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Are you equating the law with church?
Amen to the scripture you provided, but ‘church’ is not mentioned at all in those verses.

Matt 16:18
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Jesus’ words speak differently and specifically of a church that does not exist yet.

This is another point from scripture that cannot be ignored.

michel
How many peoples of God will be in Heaven? Do you think Old Testament Saints were saved apart from Christ? Are you saying that Old Testament saints are not part of the body of Christ?

Hebrews 11

By Faith

11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [1] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
 
Those whom God moved from Adam to Christ are in Christ forever… to the praise of His glorious grace. 🙂

Romans 5

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So are you now incapable of sinning?
 
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