There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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TriuneUnity said:
Well, the delusional faith wouldn’t be an instrument of justification, but what if the delusioned person at some point had faith… they would be justified…and then fall away.
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So they would be justified by faith that is not delusional.

God Bless,
Michael
 
TriuneUnity said:
Also, to refer back to the original context of this discussion:

Whether you can look at your own faith to determine whether you are saved. The deluded person may not, in actuality, be justified, from God’s perspective. We’re not, however, talking about God’s perspective…we’re talking about your. If the person is deluded then they think possess saving faith when in actuality they don’t. But if the person is deluded, how will they discern the difference between true and false faith?

That is why looking inward is not a sign of assurance.
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How does a person know that they are deluded or not? How does looking outward assure a person that they have faith?

God Bless,
Michael
 
ralphinal said:
It is the same with sin. I can justify any sin that I have ever commited, even to the point where it was GOOD for me to do it. We are all good at lying to ourselves about all kinds of things, and sin is one. Our standing with God in general is another.
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👍
 
mikeledes said:
:amen:

It is an error to think that just because God uses a means to impart His grace it is a meritorious work and that the gift that is received through those means is not really a gift. Take for example the following verse:

2 Timothy 1:6

6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

The gift of God is in Timothy through the laying on of Paul’s hands. Does this mean that what Timothy received is not really a gift - even though it is described as such - because he utilized a means (“laying on of hands”) to receive it? Besides, baptismal regeneration was unanimoulsy upheld by all of the Church Fathers ( including Augustine), upheld in the Coucnil of Orange, and was the universal and historic teaching until challenged by John Calvin.

God Bless,
Michael
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AMEN!!!
 
mikeledes said:
:eek: We finally agree on something! 😛

God Bless,
Michael
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Pretty scary.

ISTM, that all of us can submit to “external means,” and refer to them as evidences for our salvation. However, I think that the changes that must accompany true metanoia, are best evidenced in the changed life—bearing in mind that we may all be delusional.

As the axiom and the apostle states with respect to faith: "actions speak louder than words," and, I would submit, continued actions speak louder than a point-in-time ritual.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Looking outward IS faith.
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Ayayay. I’m just confused. 😃 Faith is looking outward. But how does one know that one is looking outward? It seems circular to me. You believe that you are looking outward.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Gamera said:
No, I am saying that we cannot mix and match the three different “rock” metaphors used in Scripture. Arguing “Peter can’t be the rock because God is the rock” makes no more sense than arguing “Abraham can’t be the rock because God is the rock.” They are three diverse “rock” metaphors. None is inconsistent with either of the others. God is the rock of our salvation, Peter is the rock on which the Church is built, Abraham is the rock from which the Jewish people were hewn. None of those conflict.
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Bravo, that is shortest and most concise explanation I’ve seen to date. Saving it off for future use.
 
sandusky said:
Pretty scary.

ISTM, that all of us can submit to “external means,” and refer to them as evidences for our salvation. However, I think that the changes that must accompany true metanoia, are best evidenced in the changed life—bearing in mind that we may all be delusional.

As the axiom and the apostle states with respect to faith: "actions speak louder than words," and, I would submit, continued actions speak louder than a point-in-time ritual.
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The Catholic Church agrees with you. We are called to live a changed life and that life is to be the witness to our faith.
 
mikeledes said:
Ayayay. I’m just confused. 😃 Faith is looking outward. But how does one know that one is looking outward? It seems circular to me. You believe that you are looking outward.

God Bless,
Michael
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If one is looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ, how can one believe or disbelieve you are? You either are or you aren’t lol. There’s no circularity.
 
TriuneUnity said:
If one is looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ, how can one believe or disbelieve you are? You either are or you aren’t lol. There’s no circularity.
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But I can never be sure that I am. What if I only think I am. We are all very good a lying to ourselves.
 
sandusky said:
Pretty scary.
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:rotfl:

I know, right? If I were a gambler, perhaps this would be a good time to buy a lottery ticket! 😃
ISTM, that all of us can submit to “external means,” and refer to them as evidences for our salvation. However, I think that the changes that must accompany true metanoia, are best evidenced in the changed life—bearing in mind that we may all be delusional.
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As the axiom and the apostle states with respect to faith: "actions speak louder than words," and, I would submit, continued actions speak louder than a point-in-time ritual
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I certainly believe that one’s conduct is a good indicator - though not an infallible one - of whether one is in a state of grace or not. Obviously, a person living a sinful lifestyle cannot be in a state of grace.

God bless,
Michael
 
TriuneUnity said:
If one is looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ, how can one believe or disbelieve you are? You either are or you aren’t lol. There’s no circularity.
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http://www.wonderfulinfo.com/funny/animals/animal01.jpg

Put all of your hope and security in the person and work of Jesus Christ on your behalf, and you will be saved. If you doubt that the work of Christ is sufficient for you, then it won’t be. The Apostle Paul never mentions the Roman Catholic church or even baptism in his answer to the question of "what must I do to be saved?.

And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Acts 16
 
East_and_West said:
But I can never be sure that I am. What if I only think I am. We are all very good a lying to ourselves.
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Correct; which is why God gave us baptism and the Supper; you may think your faith is weak and not good enough; so Christ gives you Himself in Body and Blood at the altar to tell you that you are forgiven. It doesn’t depend either way on your self image.
 
TriuneUnity said:
If one is looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ, how can one believe or disbelieve you are? You either are or you aren’t lol. There’s no circularity.
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:confused: But how is that different from Calvinist faith or assurance? Don’t they also believe that they are looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Ayayay. I’m just confused. 😃 Faith is looking outward. But how does one know that one is looking outward? It seems circular to me. You believe that you are looking outward.

God Bless,
Michael
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Anyway, Michael…the original context of why this was brought up has since been lost.

Do you not see how being told that Jesus didn’t die for everyone can destroy someone from looking outward and instead looking inward to determine that one is elect?
 
mikeledes said:
:confused: But how is that different from Calvinist faith or assurance? Don’t they also believe that they are looking at the promises of God contained in the work of Christ?

God Bless,
Michael
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Yes; and then the other hand says the promises of God do not apply to everyone.

So now you have to determine how they apply to YOU.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Correct; which is why God gave us baptism and the Supper; you may think your faith is weak and not good enough; so Christ gives you Himself in Body and Blood at the altar to tell you that you are forgiven. It doesn’t depend either way on your self image.
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Can a false professor receive baptism?

God Bless,
Michael
 
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